Must read this.

[billybob_81067]

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.

Wait... William Hung can't sing?

[beam]

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.

That's really a great point newt...I've never really thought about it like that.

It is true that there is a great cry in this country for troops to come home, but where is the cheer for victory?

[tropical_fishy]

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.

I don't mention their victory because I don't know what victory would be in this case. I want them to come home safely because that's a concrete, tangible thing I can say... there is nothing ANYONE can say to define the end of the "war on terror." This war is a new kind of war, defined by a new kind of world. What is winning it? Killing all the terrorists? Then there will never be victory. Killing/arresting lots of terrorists? I'd support part of that. I haven't the slightest how to define victory, nor does anyone else, so why would I hope for something I can't put my finger on?

I don't like things about the military, I think I've made that perfectly clear. But I don't hate people for NOT disliking it. I think it's admirable if someone feels so strongly about something as to lay down their life for it. I don't dislike people for placing their belief in something I don't like or don't believe in... I don't believe in the Christian God, but I don't hate Christians for their belief; I don't like certain facets of Christianity, but why would I hate Christians because they don't agree? It's the same thing with servicemen/women. I don't hate them for their beliefs, I admire them for their faith, even if I don't agree with it.

[Albinonewt]

You don't hate them for their service? How could anyone think that that wasn't support?

[tropical_fishy]

You don't hate them for their service? How could anyone think that that wasn't support?

Think what you want. We seem to have very different definitions of "support." Mine is not hating someone for what they choose to do with their life, hoping everything turns out favorably for them, and admiring them for their faith in an ideal. Yours is... well, I'm not entirely certain.

[Albinonewt]

I don't mention their victory because I don't know what victory would be in this case. I want them to come home safely because that's a concrete, tangible thing I can say... there is nothing ANYONE can say to define the end of the "war on terror." This war is a new kind of war, defined by a new kind of world. What is winning it? Killing all the terrorists? Then there will never be victory. Killing/arresting lots of terrorists? I'd support part of that. I haven't the slightest how to define victory, nor does anyone else, so why would I hope for something I can't put my finger on?

Now that I have a moment, let me go back to this. This "I don't know what victory looks like" is a cop out. WHo cares? In 1939 nobody knew that victory was going to look like Yalta, but that didn't keep people from being for victory. It is rare that you know, going into a conflict, what victory will look like. However, that doesn't, and shouldn't, keep anyone from being for victory.

[quote=Tropical FishyI don't like things about the military, I think I've made that perfectly clear. But I don't hate people for NOT disliking it. I think it's admirable if someone feels so strongly about something as to lay down their life for it. I don't dislike people for placing their belief in something I don't like or don't believe in... I don't believe in the Christian God, but I don't hate Christians for their belief; I don't like certain facets of Christianity, but why would I hate Christians because they don't agree? It's the same thing with servicemen/women. I don't hate them for their beliefs, I admire them for their faith, even if I don't agree with it.[/QUOTE]

ANd somehow in your mind this translates into support. I don't know how you've made that leap in logic, but good for you.

[Albinonewt]

Think what you want. We seem to have very different definitions of "support." Mine is not hating someone for what they choose to do with their life, hoping everything turns out favorably for them, and admiring them for their faith in an ideal. Yours is... well, I'm not entirely certain.

That's not support. What you've described can be charitably referred to as apathy, which is about as far away from support as you can get without actually joining the other side. Why should our soldiers be grateful for your brand of "support"?

You asked Recon why he doesn't feel supported by protesters like you. Give your answers here how can you possibly even need to ask that question?

[tropical_fishy]

Now that I have a moment, let me go back to this. This "I don't know what victory looks like" is a cop out. WHo cares? In 1939 nobody knew that victory was going to look like Yalta, but that didn't keep people from being for victory. It is rare that you know, going into a conflict, what victory will look like. However, that doesn't, and shouldn't, keep anyone from being for victory.

What if "victory" looks like a nuclear wasteland in the Middle East? What if it looks like a scene straight out of Farenheit 451 or 1984? I couldn't support that either. Without some kind of certainty, how can we honestly know whether or not we'd support what would happen given a victory? So untill I know what it would look like, I'll say what I said before: I hope none of our troops suffer or die; I hope they all come home safely to their families, and I hope that people continue to treat them with respect.

[Albinonewt]

Definitions of support on the Web:

the activity of providing for or maintaining by supplying with money or necessities; "his support kept the family together"; "they gave him emotional support during difficult times"
give moral or psychological support, aid, or courage to; "She supported him during the illness"; "Her children always backed her up"
aiding the cause or policy or interests of; "the president no longer had the support of his own party"; "they developed a scheme of mutual support"
support materially or financially; "he does not support his natural children"; "The scholarship supported me when I was in college"
something providing immaterial assistance to a person or cause or interest; "the policy found little public support"; "his faith was all the support he needed"; "the team enjoyed the support of their fans"
back: be behind; approve of; "He plumped for the Labor Party"; "I backed Kennedy in 1960"
a military operation (often involving new supplies of men and materiel) to strengthen a military force or aid in the performance of its mission; "they called for artillery support"
hold: be the physical support of; carry the weight of; "The beam holds up the roof"; "He supported me with one hand while I balanced on the beam"; "What's holding that mirror?"
documentation: documentary validation; "his documentation of the results was excellent"; "the strongest support for this view is the work of Jones"
confirm: establish or strengthen as with new evidence or facts; "his story confirmed my doubts"; "The evidence supports the defendant"
subscribe: adopt as a belief; "I subscribe to your view on abortion"
the financial means whereby one lives; "each child was expected to pay for their keep"; "he applied to the state for support"; "he could no longer earn his own livelihood"
supporting structure that holds up or provides a foundation; "the statue stood on a marble support"
corroborate: support with evidence or authority or make more certain or confirm; "The stories and claims were born out by the evidence"
defend: argue or speak in defense of; "She supported the motion to strike"
the act of bearing the weight of or strengthening; "he leaned against the wall for support"
accompaniment: a subordinate musical part; provides background for more important parts
play a subordinate role to (another performer); "Olivier supported Gielgud beautifully in the second act"
patronize: be a regular customer or client of; "We patronize this store"; "Our sponsor kept our art studio going for as long as he could"
any device that bears the weight of another thing; "there was no place to attach supports for a shelf"
digest: put up with something or somebody unpleasant; "I cannot bear his constant criticism"; "The new secretary had to endure a lot of unprofessional remarks"; "he learned to tolerate the heat"; "She stuck out two years in a miserable marriage"
financial resources provided to make some project possible; "the foundation provided support for the experiment"

Google Definition

Google has more then 20 defintions for support. None of them are "Not hating someone for doing something".

[Albinonewt]

What if "victory" looks like a nuclear wasteland in the Middle East? What if it looks like a scene straight out of Farenheit 451 or 1984? I couldn't support that either. Without some kind of certainty, how can we honestly know whether or not we'd support what would happen given a victory? So untill I know what it would look like, I'll say what I said before: I hope none of our troops suffer or die; I hope they all come home safely to their families, and I hope that people continue to treat them with respect.

Like I said, a cop out.

[tropical_fishy]

Like I said, a cop out.

I don't understand why it's a cop out. Clarify, please.

[890SHAWN]

Clarify

I don't understand why it's a cop out. Clarify, please.

I am a disabled veteran, I served in the U.S Army for seven years with sixteen months in the Gulf. I came back CONUS by way of Walter Reed Memorial Hospital in D.C. I was in 82nd Air attached to 24th Infantry Division and saw a lot of action.
Support DOES NOT mean "not hating", it means getting behind the troops who are there for YOU, helping the families of servicemen and women in harms way for YOU, PRAYING for the safe return of our troops, and thanking GOD that YOU are not standing on the sand being shot at like they are.
If you really want to learn what the word support means take a day and go down the the Veteran's Hospital and see the broken bodies and lives forever changed to "support" YOU at home. Go to Arlington Cemetary and look at the sea of white crosses that represent a life laid down to "support" YOU.
We all want peace and freedom but neither are free- there is a price to be paid!

[tropical_fishy]

I am a disabled veteran, I served in the U.S Army for seven years with sixteen months in the Gulf. I came back CONUS by way of Walter Reed Memorial Hospital in D.C. I was in 82nd Air attached to 24th Infantry Division and saw a lot of action.
Support DOES NOT mean "not hating", it means getting behind the troops who are there for YOU, helping the families of servicemen and women in harms way for YOU, PRAYING for the safe return of our troops, and thanking GOD that YOU are not standing on the sand being shot at like they are.
If you really want to learn what the word support means take a day and go down the the Veteran's Hospital and see the broken bodies and lives forever changed to "support" YOU at home. Go to Arlington Cemetary and look at the sea of white crosses that represent a life laid down to "support" YOU.
We all want peace and freedom but neither are free- there is a price to be paid!

And I still don't see where I haven't been adament about how much I hope and pray that all of our troops come home safely. I don't see how my distaste for violence indicates anything BUT support for the HUMAN BEINGS that make up our armed forces. I don't want Americans fighting or dying unnecessarily. You've latched on to my statement that I don't hate them; the only reason I feel the need to say that is because people accuse me of "hating" our troops, and I want to make it clear that I don't.

[Albinonewt]

I don't understand why it's a cop out. Clarify, please.

It's simple really. Instead of being supportive of your nation's soldiers at a time of way you've concocted far fetched and ridiculous scenario in order to excuse yourself from having to support victory. To think that any reasonable (and often stated) criteria for victory would be satisified by escalating a conventionally armed counter insurgency war into a nuke contest against mostly civiliians with 150,000 of our soldiers in the blast zone is simply stupid.

It's ok to admit that you don't care one way or the other if our soldier's mission is successful, but don't pretend that that's somehow support.

[Albinonewt]

And I still don't see where I haven't been adament about how much I hope and pray that all of our troops come home safely. I don't see how my distaste for violence indicates anything BUT support for the HUMAN BEINGS that make up our armed forces. I don't want Americans fighting or dying unnecessarily. You've latched on to my statement that I don't hate them; the only reason I feel the need to say that is because people accuse me of "hating" our troops, and I want to make it clear that I don't.

WEll, if you're support if for "human beings" that means you must also support the people that are killing our soldiers, and I don't think too many of our men and women in harm's way are going to be too appreciative of that.

What you've advocating is a pretty standard pacifistic dovish no war stance. There's nothing wrong with that, but saying you don't want there to be violence is a far cry from being supportive of our soldiers.