Really Old Classic Mag - Discovering History

[bowcycle]

I acquired a few markers for some extra parts I needed and am looking to send off the rest. As I was cleaning everything and oiling them down, I came across this:





A couple of things make me think this is really old.

First, it's on a WGP frame.



Next, the valve is marked 00186 and appears to be from back in the day when they soldered on the powertube



Also, the sear is huge, the sear pin in pressed into the rail, and the twist lock assembly is threaded instead of pressed.



Finally, the rail is stamped 186 to match the valve



It had a lvl 7 bolt, so I know it's not all original, but seems pretty close.

So I'm wondering if I have something special or just another old mag.

Thanks, everyone.

[blackdeath1k]

The aluminum pot metal WGP trigger frames stopped sometime around 94. My 94-95 automag had a carbon fiber frame on it.

Didn't the soldered on tips come after the clip on? I could have sworn they still soldered them on? Could be wrong there.

As for the stamp on the rail. I've never seen that before. But pretty much everything you show pre dates 94. And a level 7 hardnose was on my 94-95 classic 68automag.

Not sure any of that helped. But I tried.

[bowcycle]

Thanks, bd1k.

I know I'm 3rd owner on this. First owner was manufacture to '99, 2nd was '99 until this year, and I'm 3rd as of this year.
That's really all the history I have for it.

So again, do I have something special or just another old mag?

[blackdeath1k]

Thanks, bd1k.

I know I'm 3rd owner on this. First owner was manufacture to '99, 2nd was '99 until this year, and I'm 3rd as of this year.
That's really all the history I have for it.

So again, do I have something special or just another old mag?

I'm no collector. But I'm guessing its just another old mag. Other than the number stamp. Everything else just looks like early level 7 automag to me.

Nothing wrong with that. Set of orings and she will most likely fire like new.

[bowcycle]

according to these archives:
the sear should not be pressed in after mid-91 (lvl5), but the power tube started getting soldered on in '92 with the intro of the lvl7. Knowing the WGP frames ended in '94, that gets us in a 3 year window.

I'd still like to know if anyone else has a mag with the rail stamped to match the valve.

[bowcycle]

So, with some more digging:
Apparently Rod Demaris has the oldest "CF" engraved valves that anyone's ever seen (with the exception of TK himself). He has some in the 20's. Pyrate Jim had #44 upgraded to a lvl7, which requires milling the rail a bit for the twist-lock. So I think these originally had older valves than we were thinking. And SGTKennedy had #147 and there's at least one ~130 around here somewhere.

Serials up through the 200's were still on lvl5 bolts. At lvl 5, they started laser welding the powertube tips into the body (still using the thick bumpers). But when lvl 7 came out and they switched to twist-loc barrels, you could get the lvl7 powertube tip welded onto the front of the valve body (which is what was done to my valve the same as Pyrate Jim's valve).

So, it is obviously upgraded, but not outside of what the factory was doing for its customers. And one, final thing: this is supposed to be one of the markers used by Team Swarm, the team who won the international classic back in the early 90's using our beloved mags.

Links to helpful info are here, here, here, and here.

[need4reebs]

man tha numbering of tha valves has always confused me? i have a lvl5 valve that is #1135…maybe this valve just didnt get set in for tha lvl7 upgrade?

that was some good research tho as well as gray info ya posted!!

[bowcycle]

man tha numbering of tha valves has always confused me? i have a lvl5 valve that is #1135…maybe this valve just didnt get set in for tha lvl7 upgrade?

In all this, there were 2 exceptions that I really wondered about (yours makes 3). There were 2 cf valves in the low 11xx's that had lvl5's and one cf valve in the 6xx's that had a lvl3.

And with all the iterations that the bolts went through early on, I doubt they made it to lvl5 in 1 year and only 200 valves made.
That would lead us to believe that valves up to the 600's were lvl3's with most being upgraded to lvl7's. The time from the introduction of lvl3 to the introduction of lvl7 is only 17 months.

That would mean about another 500 valves were produced in 15 of those months (the time between lvl3 and lvl5 is only 2 months) bringing us up to the CF011XX's that were made with lvl5's. However, it seems that almost all of these have also been upgraded to lvl7's.

Per AGDusa.com, this upgrade service was offered free of charge (way to go TK), but is also why it is so difficult for us to accurately place the serials in the upgrade path.

[bowcycle]

just a little more info:

per mykroft here:
no Level 6 mags mad it into the wild, they were an interim development between the Level 5 and Level 7. It's also been mentioned by Tom that only 30-40 Level 5's weren't upgraded to Level 7.


Apparently, someone citing the 68mag manual says here:
I read in the instruction manual download from AGD that all 68 automags since serial number CF3456 have been built as level 7

[blackdeath1k]

Wow! Neat read. You have been digging.

[bowcycle]

straight from TK himself here:
we started the serial numbers at 100.

he also says:
We didn't release the gun [to the public] until level 5 so previous to that you will not find any

So here's what I'm thinking:
Any valves marked lower than CF00100 were early prototypes developed before '90 when the 68Automag went public. Many of those valves were updated to lvl5, then lvl7, and have since made their way out into the public.

Any valves etched with a valve # >100 should have started life as a lvl5 which would make the claim above to a CF006xx with a lvl3 misinformed.

That means this marker should be the 86th mag released to the public and dates to 1990 and (if the Team Swarm claim is true, seeing as there's no way to verify) was being used by the SWARM during their victory in '91. (I'm not claiming it was on the field and again, there's no way to verify the SWARM claim apart from that being the story that has come with the marker)

And just for those keeping count, if all of the linked information is true, it means 3356 valves were produces with a lvl5 before April '92. Of those, only 30-40 still have their lvl5.

[bowcycle]

and it basically means that I have an old mag with a little bit of a story, but at the end of the day, just an old mag.

[blackdeath1k]

and it basically means that I have an old mag with a little bit of a story, but at the end of the day, just an old mag.

Lol. That is neat though. And deffinetly neater than "just an old mag"

[bowcycle]

man tha numbering of tha valves has always confused me? i have a lvl5 valve that is #1135…maybe this valve just didnt get set in for tha lvl7 upgrade?

Based on the research, I would say your marker is probably worth a little something extra seeing as it is 1 of ~30 that did not get upgraded.

I'd also still like to see what sort of value someone would put on this marker.
Like I mentioned in my pumpmag sale thread, I have an agreement with the wife on how many markers get to stay and I'm over that limit at the moment. So I need to make some decisions.

Thanks, everyone.

[need4reebs]

Based on the research, I would say your marker is probably worth a little something extra seeing as it is 1 of ~30 that did not get upgraded.

I'd also still like to see what sort of value someone would put on this marker.
Like I mentioned in my pumpmag sale thread, I have an agreement with the wife on how many markers get to stay and I'm over that limit at the moment. So I need to make some decisions.

Thanks, everyone.

i just have tha Valve and body that has the extra holes on the bottom for the barrel adapter i guess?

as far as a price its hard to tell.

if you have a limit to wat mags/mag parts you can keep, lean towards keeping tha rare stuff and sell tha rest