Magnetic Flux and Coils (HES Bounce Related)

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  • BlackVCG
    Grubby Owner

    • Oct 2000
    • 4956

    #1

    Magnetic Flux and Coils (HES Bounce Related)

    I'm going to use this thread to explain, to the best of my knowledge, why the HES bounce issue occurs and how it is eliminated by changing the magnetic polarity of the coil (solenoid).

    The solenoid is a coil. It has a winding around an iron core. The coil acts as a magnet when energized and creates a magnetic field, which is actually the flux lines traveling from north to south. Of course you can't see this flux, but physically it is emitted from the solenoid and because of the closeness in proximity of the solenoid and the HES, that flux can interfere with the magnetic field produced by the HES. Basically, due to the hysterisis of the HES chip, there is a very small point at which the HES chip is "activated" and when it is not. This is why you have to pull the trigger very slowly and hold it at that defined point to get the HES to bounce. What you're doing is you're holding the magnet at the point at which the HES is telling the gun to fire and then the flux from the solenoid is then interfering and telling the HES to fire again. Since the solenoid pulses for 20ms and at the interval at which you have your MROF set at, it's like a bunch of REALLY fast trigger pulls perfectly spaced apart.

    You can check the magnetic polarity of a solenoid by setting a compass next to it. The needle will indicate your north and south poles while the solenoid is not energized. I took a few solenoids and laid them by a compass and the compass would clearly define the magnetic poles. However, when I sat a brand new solenoid next to it, the compass needle barely twitched. I thought about it for a minute and realized that since the coil acts like a magnet, it can have residual magnetisim. Since that new solenoid has not been energized other than maybe going through a test procedure when it was built, it does not have any residual magnetism, thus the compass was not reacting. I put a 9V battery to the two leads to energize the coil and put it next to the compass and it still wouldn't react. Thinking about it for a second and then realizing that I basically didn't put any current through the coil, so it didn't produce any flux, I grabbed a solenoid plunger, held it a ways out of the solenoid and then energized it. The plunger snapped into the solenoid and then I sat it next to the compass and sure enough the compass needle shifted itself quickly to show the magnetic polarity of the solenoid.


    Through testing I found that the proper configuration of the solenoid is where, when energized, the south pole of the solenoid is at the TOP of the solenoid. This means the side that the plunger goes in. You can take any solenoid, put the plunger in it and put the two wires on a 9V battery. When you have current flowing through the solenoid and the south pole is facing up, you want to mark the wire that is on the positive lead of the battery and that's the wire you want to wire to the positive lead off of the board.

    The polarity of the HES magnet is such that the north pole faces towards the HES chip. I'm assuming that when you pull the trigger and the gun fires, that switches and you have the magnetic field from the HES and from the solenoid repelling each other. Switch the wire leads on the solenoid and you have a flux coming out of the solenoid that moves right through the HES and interferes with the firing process.

    That's how I see things. Feel free to comment/question anything I've just said.
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  • nerobro
    Registered User
    • Oct 2001
    • 923

    #2
    Okey, time to dig up what little I know about magnetic fields. This is going to make me want to make drawings... :-/

    Okey. So we have our closed end solinoind. And as black demonstrated when it's energized very little flux exits the tube. That probally shows the solinoid is an efficant design by capturing all the magnetic force inside the solinoid.

    Now when you touch a peice of ferous metal to a magnetic field it becomes a magnet itself. so when you put the plunger inside the solinoid you end up getting a pretty big magnetic field coming off it's end.

    While it's polarity and orientation are wrong, and wont' set off the HES, magnetic fields DO intereact, and squish, and push themselves around. So it is possiable that when the solinoid fires it's pushing the trigger magnets field far enough away from the HES for the HES to see the trigger move.

    I am pretty sure you'd see the same problem no matter what orientation the solinoid's field was. :-/ The question is, is there a solution? could we contain the solinoid and plunger in a gauss trap? What about a "compensation" magnet that will cancel out the field coming from the solinoid letting the trigger magnet work in a steady state field? instead of one that's strong enough to move the field coming from the trigger magnet?
    To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero

    Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf

    "You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."

    Comment

    • Miscue
      Super Moderator

      • Oct 2000
      • 7105

      #3
      It's Mr. Wizard!

      Cool explanation.

      Comment

      • cphilip
        Former Moderator

        • Jun 2026
        • 16216

        #4
        Smarty pants!

        ...ok so that explains changes in effect of polarity on the hes... but does not explain the incidence of occurance with a just a software change. That should explain a problem in ALL emags and now we see an marked increase in incidence in just 3.2 emags.

        Were we seeing it before and just not as pronounced? If so then why is the software showing it up? Is there variablility in Hes sensitivity that comes into play too? Is there some change in the way Selenoids are being built lately? Is it just the shot buffering being affect confusing the Hes? Is that what is being affected rather than the shot detection of the Hes?

        Lots of questions come out of any answer. I suspect there is no clear answer to every marker but perhaps the predominant ones share a similar answer. We know so far its working to change polarity. I mean it is. Have we been changing Hes's for no reason up till now when they were just polarity problems coupled with a overly sensitive one?
        Last edited by cphilip; 12-05-2003, 07:06 PM.


        AGD, where we are so good we can do it with only ONE tube!

        cphilip.com

        Comment

        • Wynken
          Engineer 00
          • Feb 2003
          • 124

          #5
          Hmm... I thought the reason that it wasn't seen in earlier versions of the software was because of shot buffering. In previous version of the mag software the HES was ignored until a bit after the board de-energized the solenoid. Now, the HES is being read while the solenoid is energized and creating the noise.

          At least, that's how I understand it.

          I want to see if I understand BlackVCG and Nerobro correctly so I'm going to explain it slightly differenttly. You guys check if I'm following them.

          The solenoid has a magnetic field. Obviously, it's got a positive and a negative. Either end of the field will pull on the non-magnetically charged plunger, hence no need for polarized wires.

          But, when the wires are switched the poles are switched. If the north was up(the direction of the HES) before, now that direction would be the south and vice versa.

          So... when the solenoid is energized the up-side pole gets much stronger. It either gets much stronger north or much stronger south. One of these directions is opposed to the trigger magnet, and the other is attractive to it.

          In one polarity it adds to the magnetic field of the trigger magnet making the HES think the trigger is closer. In the other polariy it subtracts from the magnetic field of the trigger magnet making the HES think it is farther away.

          If it makes the HES think that the trigger magnet is far enough away to go outside of the hysterisis then the HES will output a 0. Then, when the magnetic field goes away the HES will register the magnet back where it truely is and correctly output a 1.

          The other way around, the HES just thinks the trigger is closer, and doesn't really care.

          Is that it?
          Down with Righty!

          Comment

          • RobAGD
            Cantankerous Administrator

            • Oct 2000
            • 2030

            #6
            Phil, thats simple.

            We are lookingf or trigger pulls within the noid pulse length, where before it didnt even look until it reached teh end of its counter.

            SO

            you fire and the SBFB kickes in and ways x MS before detecting a new pull

            Now in teh noid pulse length you getting the flux field and thats causing the system to pull that up as more pulls and just starts to buffer them

            and its getting so many that it cant get out of the loop

            No in teh old software that flux field would end before the system would look for another trigger pull, so you didnt see this.

            -Robert

            I hope thats right :)
            Serving AGD customers since 93, wishing I could beat some common since into some of them about 5 hrs later.

            Comment

            • Southpaw
              Registered User
              • Aug 2003
              • 534

              #7
              Would just switching the polarity of the trigger magnet and bending the HES to the opposite way do the same thing?
              I think there for, I am I think. am I?

              Comment

              • cphilip
                Former Moderator

                • Jun 2026
                • 16216

                #8
                If its so simple then why do we now have three reports of emags with 2.X software that had a hot spot now fixed by switching wires?

                My theory is we had some sensitive HES's out there all along. And switching the HES was fixing. Now we may know that they might have just been on the sensitive end of magnetic interferance spectrum anyway. And swiching polarity would have done the fix for it too.

                I am just theorizing there though. Because I am suspicious Magnetic interferance MIGHT have been interupting a few markers BEFORE Shot Buffering. And we spent a lot of time switching HES's and Boards when it was not the primary problem although it fixed the issue for that marker. And because it fixed it we assumed some things we should not have. See where I am going here?


                AGD, where we are so good we can do it with only ONE tube!

                cphilip.com

                Comment

                • nerobro
                  Registered User
                  • Oct 2001
                  • 923

                  #9
                  I'm one to believe a properly placed magnet will solve the problem. just anything to make the solinoid's influence much smaller.
                  To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero

                  Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf

                  "You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."

                  Comment

                  • athomas
                    Of course it works-its AGD
                    • Jan 2002
                    • 8039

                    #10
                    Good analysis guys.

                    A metal shield of some sort would also help contain the magnetic interference. The metal shield will attract the lines of flux limiting their influence to a lesser distance from the source.
                    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

                    Comment

                    • FooTemps
                      HURRRR
                      • Sep 2001
                      • 6702

                      #11
                      How about we try relocating the HES to a new location?

                      I remember kilauekid (sp?) relocated his HES away from the noid for some reason or another. That would pretty much eliminate the problem.

                      .
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                      Comment

                      • Bad_Knees

                        #12
                        I agree with athomas..

                        the simple tin can shielding will do it.

                        Comment

                        • nerobro
                          Registered User
                          • Oct 2001
                          • 923

                          #13
                          tin can probally won't do it. the Idea of using a magnet would be to drown out the flux changes from the solinoid.
                          To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero

                          Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf

                          "You can't outrun Death forever, but you can make the bastard work for it."

                          Comment

                          • billmi
                            Tech Editor - WARPIG.com
                            • May 2001
                            • 810

                            #14
                            Re: I agree with athomas..

                            Originally posted by Bad_Knees
                            the simple tin can shielding will do it.
                            Tin is non-magnetic and won't distort the field.

                            Computer / Paintball geek
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                            Comment

                            • Bad_Knees

                              #15
                              Well maybe not tin...

                              Well just a figure of speech. I can't remember what material the shielding used on cel phone boards are but they look like little "Tin Cans". They are probably stamped sheet metal with special properties to protect sensitive components from EMI. They also used metallic paint in some cases where the metal shielding could not be properly formed. I hope that clears things up.

                              BK

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