Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

[toolfan62]

Originally posted by manike


Would it make a difference if the gun was electronic or mechanical???

do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

[manike]

Originally posted by toolfan62
do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

Erm, yes in some form in modern weapons I have seen electronics being used. But anyway it was a joke...

[Lohman446]

Frankly, this whole thing is a threat to the industry as a whole - I know for a fact (I have read the transcripts) that Bud Orr has gone to court to help the industry - I am sure many others have.

There reaches a point, where the manufacturers who have gotten this industry here, need to unite. It is time for BE (largest supplier out there), AGD, WGP, and everyone else to put up a common defense. It is time that they support ICD and WDP in any way possible - be it financially or with expertise. It is then time that these same companies see to it that the patent is overturned through other legal channels. An industry group that excludes SP as further developments are made - there is no reason one company should be able to bully an industry that has worked cooperatively together to make paintball what it is today. Where was SP when paintball did not appear to be highly profitable? Why should they have such a say today... just my two cents.

[fenris69]

I originally heard this one in Yiddish(ahh wonderful language for insults) but I think it applies...

"If my grandmother had balls she'd be my grandfather"

point being... well you get the point. I'm going to reserve judgement till I know exactly what SP intends to do. The many other pre-existing patents I find interesting and it seems to me that somewhere along the line SP could have been taken to account for their own patent attempts... but then when I consider all the other similar actions... ie. WGP vs the vertical cocker body?? The industry as a whole seems to be rather naive and idealistic when it comes to the rule of principle vs cash, handshake agreements just wont do it anymore. But hey, you the players and even the small owners all have a voice. You want to cut SP's market share in half? I think it could be done, but why?? IF these patents are as flimsy as was suggested then no worries right? IF they are upheld somehow(I'm not sure I see how yet, but I'll do some more reading) then why would SP do something that would flush their public image down the toilet?? They may as was mentioned go after the smaller struggling companies simply putting them down on legal expenses but... well however much that disgusts and angers me, it's biz and IMO it wont damage the sport long term. But this is all trying to be impartial, an observer...
as a player, I say the hell with SP and their crap, lets get something going!! I no longer have any urge to purchase that max-flo I was eyeing.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by toolfan62


do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

http://www.metalstorm.com/

"A totally electronic specialist police and military handgun prototype has fired two rounds at 45,000 rounds per minute, and three rounds at 50,000 rounds per minute."

Link to video clip

http://www.metalstorm.com/12_odwyervle/prototype.html

The ability to fire such ultra-rapid bursts can place multiple rounds on the target in a very effective way. At these extreme rates of fire, even a three shot burst sounds and looks as though only a single shot has been fired, except that three impacts appear virtually simultaneously on the target.

If a police officer is faced with no choice other than to react to end a highly threatening situation, the stopping power of multiple rounds fired in a single burst is more likely to end the confrontation quickly, avoiding a gunfight and reducing possible police or civilian casualties.

Electronic Access Controls:
The VLe test weapon incorporates, as part of its original manufacture, technology which automatically limits its operational use and cannot be readily deactivated, so that the gun can only be fired by authorised or recognised users.

It is fitted with a 64 digit electronic keying system that limits its usage to only authorised persons who are wearing a dress ring concealing a tiny transponder. The keying system - developed by a US company - can activate the handgun in just a few milliseconds, when the two codes match.

Audio and Visual Confirmation of Weapon Settings:
When activated, a clear electronic voice message can confirm when the weapon is set to fire, which fire settings are selected, and also when the weapon is returned to 'Safe'.

In situations where surprise might be desirable, audible confirmation can be disengaged. However, in other instances, audio confirmation can provide an officer with additional situational control in a confrontation, by clearly announcing an escalating level of response to an escalating threat from a criminal.

The electronic handgun incorporates features discussed at briefings in 1999 with the Commissioner of the New York Police Department and duty officers at the 1st District Precinct in Washington DC.

Metal Storm will continue to demonstrate the advanced capabilities to senior police and military personnel in Australia and the U.S.

Future Development:
Further developments will also include a rapid reload capability, and miniaturised electronics. A range of alternative electronic access limiters is planned for future firing systems, as is a battery-free operating capability.

Metal Storm is presently developing a compact multiple barrel 24 shot weapon which can be rapidly switched between lethal and less-than-lethal fire.

[icegod]

Originally posted by askman
I wanted to add some information about patent law. lot of misinformation flyiing around here.

US patent is only good for US. most country have their own patent office, and europe has one for the EU. There is 1 year grace period in US for filing patent after making the information public. In europe, once the information is public, you cannot file patent.(no grace period) Patent must be filed in each country.

You can file a patent on anything not already patented. It cannot be obvious. Now, if another person can prove prior art(that the patent idea was already being used) before the filing date, the patent will get thrown out. Because of this, if it is too broad, it has greater chance of being voided. this usually takes a court action.

For example, you could possibly patent how the trigger set off the electrical switch in paintball marker. They can even cover using variety of switches including contact, opto and magnetic. (I don't know if that is what SP did as i have not read their patent) There is trick to writing a good patent. cover as much as possible, but not make it so broad. Another example. Usuing battery for electronic trigger system is probably not patentable. anything electronic by default use battery, so it is obvious. Of course, using windup capacitive discharge system to power it, might be patentable.

I am not a lawyer, but I had a seminar on patent, when I filed for mine. (work for fortune 500 company in r&d)

Hope this helps clear some stuff up...

When i filed for mine, in the paper work explaining it and etc that some countries accept US patents as their own, England was among that list or some intn'l patent or something, i'll try to find all this crap i had about it. I don't remember it exactly bc i was still in a daze from the costs of what it would have been for me to do it. maybe its changed since dunno. I ended up not patenting my stuff due to its so damn expensive for the common man :) but anyways the main issue about this is, that originally it didnt cover everything they claim, there is revisions that have made it so broad that it covers pretty much all electros. Which this broad range and the previous art they should get shut down and stop the suit, but ya know how falable our judicial system is. Its no longer innocent until proven guilty, its now guilty until proven innocent TRUST ME I KNOW. Because my store was robbed i was shot 2ce, the guy got away, they found out i was having relationship problems several weeks before and all of a sudden I shot my own damn self. Who in thier right mind, owning a business shoot thier self in the chest\shoulder and in the side. no one, but thye tried to pin it on me until witness's came forward saying they saw the guy jump a train. I had to prove my innocence when i was the victim. but thats over now so :P guilty until proven innocent

[TecnoRobo]

After considering all the bad things that could happen because of this situation, ive finally allowed myself to cool down and look at it differently.

The paintball industry has struggled to get where it is today. (struggled alot, i cant put it into words... i guess how much) But the only way the industry can move is forward. It may seem as if this a step backwards or a giant brick wall that we have to step over. Don't get me wrong, because it is, but im just now considering the good things that can come out of the situation.

#1 A new type or breed of markers. Something Other than electros or mechs? Heck i dunno, but im sure the players in the late 80s and early 90s wouldnt have considered there being an electro-pneumatic marker. Atleast i wouldnt have.

#2 The industry as a whole may decide to group together as it once did in the early 90s to make paintball the sport we all want it to be.

#3 Mech markers may have a signifigant comeback and Mags may rule the field again. As Tom Mentioned earlier, why do you think hes been in the process of the ule trigger and probably all the other ule projects/lvl 10?

#4 While it is possable that smaller companies could take major hits, or even go bankrupt, this also gives people the chance to take there shot at it, which could result in a whole new line of supreme products.

At the moment i dont know how bad the situation is. I really dont know what im talking about either. But you always have to consider the good, instead of just looking at the bad all the time i suppose.

And to paintball industry as a whole, especially AGD, Good luck. I hope everything turns out ok.

[jinxed]

Originally posted by toolfan62


do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

Actually yes.
Many target pistols have been availible with electronic triggers for the last 30 or so years. Pretty common in the target pistol scene.

The most famous type was used in the recent Star Wars movies, made by Hammerli (VERY expensive).
Yes, there also are electropneumatic firearms. (I believe the Shocker patent refers to a few).

I don't think an electro-firearm makes for prior art, so its a good thing we have that Navy patent!

-Nick

[icegod]

Originally posted by jinxed


Actually yes.
Many target pistols have been availible with electronic triggers for the last 30 or so years. Pretty common in the target pistol scene.

The most famous type was used in the recent Star Wars movies, made by Hammerli (VERY expensive).
Yes, there also are electropneumatic firearms. (I believe the Shocker patent refers to a few).

I don't think an electro-firearm makes for prior art, so its a good thing we have that Navy patent!

-Nick

Fire arms and airpowered guns are not classified in the same manor so that SHOULDNT represent previous art, however from reading the 1971-72 patent by the US Navy, though it appears to be more airsoft style than paintball, it does set a precedent to electronics being used in airpowered guns for sport. Though the patent has now expired on this, (patents last i believe 7 years if not mistaken) it does free up the use of electricity within air powered guns, generally speaking paintball guns.

[Won Hunglo]

[TJ03A]

Originally posted by shartley

Sorry about that, lost that in the length of this thread.

[jinxed]

Originally posted by icegod

however from reading the 1971-72 patent by the US Navy, though it appears to be more airsoft style than paintball, it does set a precedent to electronics being used in airpowered guns for sport.

The Navy patent certaintly predates the first "official" game in 1980.
But the patent clearly states that its designed to "shoot dye filled gelatin capsules" to provide "lasting and realitic indication of hits" for the purpose of "combat training".
This perfectly describes paintball. (well, woods paintball).
AND is referenced in the Shocker patent, SO SMART PARTS KNOWS it exists. My assumptions is they have already planned a defense to work around the Navy Patent.

Not only does the electropneumatic "Navy" paintgun have great features like a force-feed loader, and ACE, and has a great idea that has never been tested:
At the end of the barrel is a tiny razor blade- This puts a TINY cut on the paintball to ensure that it DEFINETLY breaks on the target!

What an amazing idea for paintball! and apparently its already public domain!

-nick

[DK1]

I think that was actually one of the things the new hammerhead barrel was supposed to do. The rifling was supposed to be sharp enough to actually score the ball. Dunno, never used one, but tis just what I've heard...

DK1

[jinxed]

Originally posted by slushee
Assuming, of coarse, that these notices were actually sent out (again, proof?)

Is there any documentation regarding your claim that SP was/is "going after ICD."

The "latest" reply from Smart Parts confirms what Manike said:

"As for the lawsuit it’s really not up to me. But I do know this, it’s been going on now for a couple of years. This didn’t happen over night. Smart Parts went to every company out there with electronic gun at the time and sat down and talked to each one of them trying to keep it from going to court. But every one of them said go **** yourself. Paintball is growing and will continue to grow and just like the guy who invented the tennis racquet and gets royalties off each one Billy and Adam feel they should be with there invention of the Electronic gun. When they first told people about it, they took so much criticism and said it couldn’t be done and it would never work. They tried to keep it simple and not take it to court but no would give credit where credit was do. Sorry but In a way I do agree with them I just think it could have been done different. I hope people who are in business can see why this has been done, Thanks. Smart Parts"

So, Manike was telling the truth....
Its also interesing that is reply totally contradicts what the last letter from Smart Parts said (about the lawsuit having nothing to do with electronics).

-Nick

[icegod]

Anyone have a family member alive in WW2 that was in the military and higher ranked? My grandpa was a Lt. and said that the military tested stuff similar to the pumps we used today, only in the 1940s-50s. it was "top secret" and he stated that they were attempting a predated chemical warfar using these to test the shooting of different items such as acid filled balls, lightweight metal balls, etc. but the designs were similar to pumps.

So that would mean that the military actually started the progression, yes since the "official" game in the 80s, but the claim of my grandfather, along with the 70s patent of electronic "device" of the navy, that would practically stop the patenting of any marker possibly. Granted you'd have to check into my grandfather's claims more. He died in 95, but, he was always saying my nelspot and cobra made him think back to the war and them testing this kind of stuff. He also basically explained the whole concept except theirs wasn't gas powered it was spring powered similar to talons. [edit] Not the talons made by brass eagle, there is a 40cal marker that is spring fed and pump action. Its more airsoft style but with the 40cal paintballs. I'll see if i can find some pics of them just incase someone wants them [edit]

Maybe someone could check that.

Also as far as the "razor blade" idea, correct me if im wrong but in one of tom kaye's tech sheets on airgun.com describes testing something similar. I'll have to go back and read the tech sheets its been along time lol.




Had to edit for clarification :)