Shatner 2 recap

**Bugmuncher** · 09-02-2003, 11:55 AM

I concur

While I was impressed with most of the refereeing, I also have to admit I was disappointed by it as well.

Example 1: I chronoed in at 265, then played for a bit, and a handheld chrono had me at 281, 315, 279. I got punched and was treated like a cheater by the referee that clocked me. I was not argumentative with her, but she punched me anyway.

So I chronoed back down to 265, and an hour later I was back above 280, and was not allowed to enter. That's fine by me, since they didn't punch me.

But my paranoia led me to chrono down to 230 so I would have no problems.

Example 2: Just before the final battle, I got new air, and chronoed myself at 199.

Ten minutes into the final battle I was told I was done for the day for shooting hot. I volunteered to disconnect my air and play with an inoperative weapon, and the referees told me they were trying to send as many people out as possible, and it was for my own safety that I leave, since the venue for the final battle was too dangerous considering the number of people there.

I dunno. For my $100, I'd like the chance to lead a few charges with an inoperative weapon and catch a few paintballs.

I'll probably do one more event before writing it off entirely.

Jason

**largetarget** · 09-02-2003, 12:19 PM

Field Chronos

Anyone else have questions about the field chrono used on the outlaw's side during the final game at Shatner on Sunday? When I chronoed over (without having had time to fire a first shot in the match) I was dismissed. Fine, my mistake for not being tuned right. Happy to leave and not hurt anyone. Then I realized at least 25% of us were failing chrono. What are the odds that many of us, having chronoed that morning, possibly again on the field during the day, were shooting hot at the same time? Worse, we were out of the game, not allowed to shoot, getting slaughtered with paint (most of it bling lobbing), and there was no way off the field and no shelter. No refs interested in the problem either. We eventually crawled down the little cliff there into another (happily empty) playing field. The refs goal was apparently to get people out of the game, but they didn't have any follow through. Not to mention the number of people who just ignored the system.

**nosnformatt** · 09-02-2003, 01:50 PM

listen, i was personally beside mancow in the first battle and i saw him get hit then call for a medic then the med cleaned him then i saw him get shot then he was hit in the head and left the feild, no bodyguards with sheilds and he was on the front. how is that a puss

**Jeffy-CanCon** · 09-02-2003, 02:04 PM

I never had any chrono problems all day, though I know a few people who did.

IMO, the biggest factor in deciding the game wasn't cheating, or mismatched numbers. It was the tanks. Ours broke down early (11:15, on the first mission), and was not repaired. The Cavalry tank stayed on the field another three hours, and swept everyone before it. Without it, the blue team was almost never able to advance against us.

I've played almost a dozen events this size, and in my experience "wiping", "overshooting" and firing through tapelines is usually over-reported.

80% of people playing these games are shooting at close to their maximum range, and can't really see their balls breaking on target. They shoot 10-20 balls, and assume they got a valid hit. If the target doesn't walk away, they call him a cheater. From the receiving end, I'll testify that few balls actually hit, and fewer still break at long ranges.

When you open fire on the opposition, and 5-10 guys fire back 5-10 balls each, it feels like overshooting, though it's really not. It sucks, but nobody is being vicious.

Later in the day, people DO start wiping and overshooting, because many are fed up with all the perceived wiping on the other team. Tempers flare, arguments start, and you find out how good the refs really are. I generally get off the field about an hour before the posted game-end time, to avoid the madness.

If the EMR refs were pulling people out of the last battle to reduce potential trouble in the overcrowded village, I can understand that. If there was no further plan it was because the organizer wasn't involved, and the refs actions were based on their own experiences. EMR has well-trained and experienced scenario refs, and their concern is with safety first, rather than paint sales or player glory.

(note: they did allow LaW to play in the final battle with no paintgun at all, just the Wang Force banner)

**Bugmuncher** · 09-02-2003, 02:32 PM

Thanks, Jeff.

Hi Jeff.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I saw the dude with the banner, too, and I was glad he was there. I just wish the referees would have allowed me to do what he did.

I completely agree with you about the perception of overshooting, shooting hot, etc and how it adds to players' frustration. I do my part during the game by not arguing with anyone (including referees) and asking people to check me if I can't see an obvious hit on myself. That, and I try to make others on my team feel the peace that each player needs in order to prevent the rage that comes from frustration.

I'm usually the last person to whine about anything, too. I just think it's silly to have paid $100 for an event where safety and fun don't have the same rank in the minds of the refs. The moment fun is placed below safety, either the event is too dangerous, or it's not as fun as it could be. That's what turns people away from events such as this. An event that ranks both of these equally will have the highest percentage of satisfied players, in my opinion. (It makes sense - if people aren't having fun, will they come back?)

BTW: I think I have learned a lesson from my final battle experience: the line "Who's coming with me?" never works. :) After addressing about 20 raiders who had an excellent position on the right and a short 10-yard run to the center building, I took off, and led a massive charge... with only one following me. Was it effective? I got a glimpse of the inside. :)

Too bad I didn't get to meet you. CanCon was one of the first paintball pages I found on the web, and I've always wondered about it.

Jason

**Muzikman** · 09-02-2003, 02:41 PM

Since I did not play and gave up my right to play for a Press pass, I spent the day walking around the field taking pics on both sides. I had talked to quite a few refs and I was pinned on the cliff during the final battle (the cliff where the Calvery was flanking from the left. I stood next to two refs who were watching and making sure the players were not going out out bounds.

Was this game fixed? I had my doubts Saturday night, but I think there were some things that did not make sense in which let me think that the tables were tipped in favor of Shatner.

As for cheating, there was playing on and wiping on both sides. That is what happens when you get that many people on the field. As for the hot guns. My guess is that if you went on the field under 280 and the hand helds were showing a little higher, then there was an inconsistancy with the chrono's. I saw this at the IAO when my team went and chronoed at the one station and we all got in the tent to get on the field, most of our guns were hot. I can tell you that the blue team was also chronoing on during the final battle. I have a pic of a whole group of them standing there along the road near the castle shooting across a chrono.

All in all I think this was a VERY wel run game. If you are not use to big games then you might think differently, but all in all things were safe, fair, and I saw quite a bit of all around sportsmanship. The communication between the refs were the best I have ever seen in a game this size. I give lots of credit to Blue and crew for doing a great job with this event, and if the event is moved away from EMR next year, I sure hope that they find a place that can run it as smooth, but that will be a hard task.

**judster** · 09-02-2003, 06:30 PM

slasherdan...the reason evil inc played for tom this year is because thay are an AGD sponsored secnario team. i have played with these guys many times. one thing they are NOT are cheaters. they are some of the best standup players in scenario ball. i know manty times in a final/big battle i have taken hit from my own team. thats the way it is. are these people 'spies'? no just bad shots. im sorry you had a bad time, but doging a scenario team because they 'played for shatner last year' is stupid. this is all im am going to say on the matter, i was not there this year. i will however point the members of evil inc to this forum and they can talk for themselves...

**slasherdan** · 09-02-2003, 07:34 PM

I think I was misunderstood.

Judster,
I didn't claim that Evil Inc cheated. I was just really annoyed that I got shot out of the game by them during so many fights that it just became an issue of "What the hell are they thinking?"

If these guys are so good, then they really need to learn to "see" their target before they shoot. And if they shoot, they need to cut down on the number of times they pull the trigger. And when they watch their team take an objective then they need to learn the fact that there is a 50% chance the person they see IS their teammate.

Let me explain two situations to give a better example of what I'm talking about.

1.) Battle at the Gap of Rohan. (hey that what the sign said):
We have some Blue shirts slowly coming up the hill. I get one Evil Inc guys attention that I'm going to hide in some bushes and ambush any one that comes up through the trees. He says "cool". In the meantime I'm watching one of our ghillie suit snipers watching over us. A blue shirt is sneaking up on him and I try to point him out. I can't say anything because I don't want to give away my spot. Well Ghillie suit gets it and the Blue shirt see me and opens up. Ambush ruined I decide to get out of there. I yell "Outlaw coming out!!" and I leap out of my hiding spot. Evil Inc guy shoots me about 6 times (or more) from 8 feet away. He knew I was there. I annouced my intentions. I get shot... more than need be.

2.) Final battle:
We make a charge for one of the bunker between our lines and the Blue shirts. Evil Inc guy is on the ridge giving us supporting fire, I and one other guy make it into the bunker. I throw my back to the wall so I can see my lines to make sure I can see their retreat if they get pushed. I point my marker out the door towards the blues and open up. The next thing I know, I get shot 12 times by the guy that was giving me cover fire.
This guy tries to appologies after the issue so I should give him credit. But his excuse for shooting me is "I just saw a body in the door and a stock pointing at me."
So this only proves that this team is cannot operate in large groups. Why split them up as XO's was a mistake. Let them stay a team and work on their own by themselves.

I won't even get into all the other times they shot me and fellow teammates out. I haven't got the energy in my fingers.

If they really are that good, then they really had a poor showing that day.

**oxyguy** · 09-02-2003, 07:43 PM

Heres a story

I Have a Good Story and a "Thank You" To Someone! This was my 11 yr. old son's first big game. We discussed plans what would happen if and when we got seperated in a field as big as EMR. I was marked out, near the little castle.He was supposed to get somewhere safe and wait. Well... He wandered...walked down towards the birdbath... Heard a firefight erupt and turned and walked the other way..Then he realized he was lost and no ref around! Panic set in and through the radio it was clear that he was scared. As he set down next to a tree, in a dead panic... the bush next to him started talking to him to calm him down Gave him some direction to get back to castle Numbskull.... To That man in the Ghille... I Owe you!!!!!If you read this please respond because a simple act like what you did, saved a father son outing that could have gone bad. THANK YOU !!!!!
Les

**judster** · 09-02-2003, 09:18 PM

slasher, i can understand your complants. they seem valid to me. i was not there to see 1st hand what happened, so until evil inc speaks up i really do not have an argument here. i just wanted to state that the times ive played against/with them its been a pleasure. no harm no foul, like i said i will pass along this thread to them and let them tell their side. i am in no way, shape, or form a person that needs to talk for them, they are big boys. again im sorry you didnt have a good time. i know afer the 1st shatner game i wasnt too happy either, trust me, for the money i spent to get up there i could have played 3 good MXS or Viper games that would have lasted longer then 8-9hrs. thats one of the main reasons i didnt go this year...i can get more 'bang for my buck' at a MXS or Viper event. by any chance was this your 1st scenario game?

**Dayspring** · 09-02-2003, 10:39 PM

I also got an inconsistent chrono judge at the end of the day. I chrono'd low all day to remove any doubt. I go through chrono at the final battle 3 times. 4th time, ref sends me out for the day for shooting hot but won't show me the speed.

BS!

**AutomagRT1483** · 09-02-2003, 11:03 PM

I have no problems with loosing a game as long as it's done to a bunch of honest players. Sharner's team was not made up of a 100% honest players.

Oh yeah, I can agree with ya on that one too buddy. Not so much the wipers but the general idiocy of a select few of there players that I ran into during the mid day fight by the reinsertion points. I got hit three times in the gun, two in the chest, 11 in the back, 2 in the back of the leg and one on the top of my head from one of them. I was laying in a fetal position on the ground because it hurt that much. That idiot lit me up and the ref didnt even do a damn thing about it, he even seen me screaming that I was out and with my hand in the air. That was total BS on the part of the ref staff. Then I got yelled at by the large ref with the canada flag on his goggles for contesting it, he told me to keep it to myself which I sure wasnt going to do. I hope its not back at EMR next year. Or they should get all the refs to know what there doing out there and not be just spectators. They dropped the ball there, big time.

**Burphel** · 09-03-2003, 03:16 AM

Heya, Burphel from Evil Inc. here.

I personally, can't recall shooting a teammate all day. I came close once, setting down my gun to radio in about a tank and having a twig pop the electric trigger. Missed a friendly's foot by inches. I did get shot at least twice by Raider/Cyborg teammates. In scenario games, friendly fire happens. It ain't fun, but it happens.

As for overshooting, you just mentioned that the biggest episode happened right next to an active insertion point. Do you think that just maybe, the bad guys might have been raining shots in at the waves of live players streaming in behind you? In a situation like that, you haul *** to a tapeline when you're out and expect a few extra bruises anyway.

As for our effectiveness, I think the score in spite of the odds against us speaks for itself. We came very close to winning this event. Evil Inc and Wang force were the only teams on our side that showed up for organizational meetings. You may not realize just how stacked the odds were against us. Shatner and Manchowder are just figureheads, the real people running the Cav were Pacman and the Mag 7. That would be 7 people who probably have more cumulative experience in scenario paintball than the rest of the people on the field put together. They also had several teams that knew the field. Hell, Blue owns the field. They had numbers, they had their base in Castle Aargh, the single most defensible position on the field, and they had scenario experience. In spite of this, the Raiders/Cyborg were winning up until the very end, and could have pulled out a win if we'd taken the final battle.

Wang Force and the other AO members that showed up helped immensely, as did the efforts of every member of our side, but without organization, hitting hard won't win a scenario game. That organization is what Evil brought to the game. At least 3 of us killed the batteries in our radios (something we've never done in 24hr games) from the amount of inter-squad and squad to base communication we were doing.

And yes, I'll agree that yelling 'follow me' seldom works. If you saw a guy in a kilt clearing rooms and running for the objective twice in the last minute, once without a gun, you saw a few of my many experiences with that. This is a basic issue with leadeship in paintball scenarios. Every player is there voluntarily and can opt out at any time. Unlike the military, we can't shoot someone for desertion or failure to follow orders. Well, you can, but it doesn't help

. Again, you do what you can with what you have.

As for how clean the game was, every Cavalry player I shot walked or got a medic and I saw only one questionable call by a ref.

I'm sorry if you had a bad time, Slasher. But I think the number of people who enjoyed the game in spite of losing far outnumber those who didn't. And as for our effect, Tom seemed pretty pleased with what he's getting out of sponsoring us. I didn't see him without a smile all weekend, even after the loss.

*disclaimer* I'm not the team captain, so this isn't what I'd call the official team response, just mine. Preacher is helping drive our trailer back to Cali right now, so don't expect such a response for another few days.

**Burphel** · 09-03-2003, 03:24 AM

*oops* I misread A.RT's post about overshooting as yours Slasher, my bad.

Shatner 2 recap

Shatner 2 recap

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment