venting problem

[athomas]

Retro valves have been known to hold air internally, although I've never experienced it with either of mine. Usually, as you remove the valve, the bolt goes forward because the spring now offers less resistance than the remaining air in the chamber. Once the bolt stem goes forward past the carrier oring, all remaining air leaves the valve through the bolt. The only way I can see this happening is if you have severe bolt stick and the bolt is staying in the valve as you remove it. Lets face it, if the bolt is not in the front of the powertube, then the path of least resistance for the air is out the front.

Is your bolt moving forward as you remove the valve from the body of the gun?

[dropzone]

I understand what you are saying and I will double check with Blake on it when I get to work today, I think this is why he is concerned about the power tube.

As far as the sear is concerned I never saw any type of noticeable wear on it at all. At least not enough to effect it catching the bolt and holding it on return. If it is a power tube issue that is preventing the bolt from traveling is full length of the tube, I.E. full return to catch the sear then sticking it that spot after degassing far enough back to not allow the valve to release pressure would explain both issues. My questioning on this theory is in order for this to be the cause wouldn't there have to be a sizeable amount bend in the powertube to cause this, at least enough that you could obviously see it by visual inspection?

On a different perspective if the two problems are unrelated, back to the double shot issue. Could this be a rail problem. Has anyone ever had or heard of any issues with the Logic Alpha Rails? Were these made from genuine AGD slugs?

[dropzone]

Okay the possibility of it being a sear or rail problem as been eliminated. Switched out the valve with a different X-valve and it works flawlessly.

These Items have also been eliminated.

Dirt,Debris (its pristine inside and out)
Not oiled properly, (Duh)
Bolt, (Tried different bolt on same valve, same result.)
Bolt spring, (Tried lightest to heaviest, Same result.)
Power tube tip, ( Tried different tip with different bolt from working valve, same result)
On off and on off pin. (Replaced with new one, same result)
Regulator piston pin, ( Replaced with new one, same result)
Entire valve regulator ( Replaced with one from a functioning X-valve, same result)

Here is a Recap of the the issue.

THERE IS NO LONGER A VENTING PROBLEM

Gas The Marker up. Marker fires once when trigger is pulled and again when trigger is released. Bolt returns to the fully cocked position but will not fire again when trigger is depressed. Disconnect the air source from the valve. Valve still holds pressure even after depressing the trigger to release the remaining pressure in the valve. Disassemble the frame, rail and body and manually depress the on off pin so the valve can be removed. Once the valve is removed as Athomas stated their is only two paths of least resistance for the remaining air pressure to go. Either out through the on off or out through the power tube. Now heres where we are stumped. The On Off pin will shoot out of the on off if not held in place but on the other hand the bolt will slide right off of the power tube without any (noticeable) resistance and release the pressure being held in the front half of the valve. Athomas, what would you consider to be (extreme) bolt stick to cause this problem because I have checked that before myself and the movement of sliding the bolt off of the power tube seemed to be pretty fluid? To me I would think it would take an awful lot of "bolt stick" considering the amount of pressure being held in the power tube but..... considering the C.I. vs. the P.S.I. and taking into account the mass that its trying to move, what kind of force are we looking at?

Both of us have a very good working knowledge of the design and function of Automag valves and this just doesn't make any sense. By design, the laws of physics and just plain common sense this problem just isn't possible............or is it?

[athomas]

Gas The Marker up. Marker fires once when trigger is pulled and again when trigger is released. Bolt returns to the fully cocked position but will not fire again when trigger is depressed.


Athomas, what would you consider to be (extreme) bolt stick to cause this problem because I have checked that before myself and the movement of sliding the bolt off of the power tube seemed to be pretty fluid? To me I would think it would take an awful lot of "bolt stick" considering the amount of pressure being held in the power tube but..... considering the C.I. vs. the P.S.I. and taking into account the mass that its trying to move, what kind of force are we looking at?

A fire on pull and release could be that you are using an on-off pin that is too short.

I don't know what I would consider extreme bolt stick? Usually, the bolt won't recock under extreme conditions. Since yours is resetting, I am stumped. There is air pressure in the chamber after a shot, but when dry firing it is definately less than firing with a ball in the chamber. Therefore, the available pressure may not be enough to dislodge the bolt and relieve the remaining air. Have you tried changing carriers to one size larger? Even the original leak down the barrel may not have been a loose carrier, but rather one that had a piece of dirt in it. Sometimes these carrier oring issues can cause us to use a carrier that is a bit tighter than we would normally use. Try a new oring and retune your level 10. When properly tuned, the bolt should almost slide off when the valve is held vertically. A slight tap on the valve should cause it to move.

Your quick disconnect on the valve isn't a check valve by any chance?

[BigEvil]

Talk to BIGEVIL his is the guru when it comes to this. I finally had to send my x-valve to him to fix because of a leak ou the vent hole. I changed many o-rings and could not get it to stop but he worked his magic (with the help of the elves I am sure) and now its on its way home

oh and as you probably figured out.. don't take the valve out while the marker is gassed up!! DANGER BAY!

I hate you and I hate your valve (Just kidding, my hate is reserved for a select few )

[Coralis]

try changing the power tube oring and check the bolt "post" (the part that actually slides in the power tube )

[dropzone]

Its not the "Bolt Post"...........or the bolt itself, everything that has to do with the bolt has been eliminated from the equation by putting a different "functioning bolt" on the same valve = same results.........read my post.


New o-ring on the power tube????????????????

Sorry no noobs here trying to tech a Spyder. Thanks for you input though, its appreciated.


NEXT ?



Athomas,

it is not a check valve.

Checking on trying a longer pin looks like the next step.

Thanks.

[athomas]

New o-ring on the power tube????????????????

I think he meant the white carrier oring. It is technically a powertube oring.

[blake20]

Everyone thanks for your help. Sorry I have not posted Big Evil I agree with you!!!! I have unfornatly been busy working late and have not been able to work on said problem. I'm going to change out everything this weekend. All the orings, new carriers and reg valve pin. New sear. I'll let you all know.

Blake

[Coralis]

Its not the "Bolt Post"...........or the bolt itself, everything that has to do with the bolt has been eliminated from the equation by putting a different "functioning bolt" on the same valve = same results.........read my post.

If you had something like a bent power tube or a damaged carrier it may cause marring on the bolt post or on the sides of bolt anyway have fun with it ill keep my noobish thoughts to myself

[blake20]

If you had something like a bent power tube or a damaged carrier it may cause marring on the bolt post or on the sides of bolt anyway have fun with it ill keep my noobish thoughts to myself

I'll take all the help I can get NOOBISH or not!!!!
Thanks
Blake

[zeroex]

hi, i'm having similiar problems with my on/off assembly...it pops off when i gas up the gun, pretty much similar problems minus the bolt problems as dropzone. it was working perfectly the other day; maybe the on/off assembly needs to be replaced?

using an emax valve with lvl 10...thanks!

[blake20]

If I get it fixed this weekend I'll post
Blake

[blake20]

Maybe a fix

All right here we go. Changed everything out of a working valve and this is what I came up with. athomas you are correct I do have a slight bolt stick. Went to a leaking carrier and now it's working. Also took off the SS line and went back to macro. The SS fitting was causing the bolt to bind. It now seems to be working ok. Still have to tune level 10. Keep you posted.
Blake

[Spider-TW]

All right here we go. Changed everything out of a working valve and this is what I came up with. athomas you are correct I do have a slight bolt stick. Went to a leaking carrier and now it's working. Also took off the SS line and went back to macro. The SS fitting was causing the bolt to bind. It now seems to be working ok. Still have to tune level 10. Keep you posted.
Blake

How does that happen?...orc face

Sounds like you got mag support on the horde, but let me know if you guys need anything. No primary mags should be allowed to miss the game.