The Pneumag... warrior or wimp?

[ghost flanker]

Lately, I've been looking to increase the firepower on my x-valved automag, but the sky-high price tag of E-mag lowers and the uncertainty of whether or not a Hyperframe would destroy my Level 10 bolt were both big turn offs... not to mention that both choices meant having to convert to battery power and a circuit board (something that has just never quite sat right with me).

Then I started looking at Pneumags and did a little research. They're all-mechanical.
Existing markers can be retrofitted for a somewhat reasonable price. Rates of fire up to 34 bps. On paper, it seemed to fit anyone's needs.

However, when I checked out some pneumag videos on youtube.com as well as ones posted in these forums, I have to say I was a bit dissappointed. Every video I saw showed various pneumags (even ones apparently equipped with Level 10 bolts and Halo hoppers) chopping paint like crazy. I'm talking, like, 1 out of every 20 balls in a string of paint erupted into a green or pink cloud in front of the muzzle ...ok, maybe 1 out of 20 is a bit of an inaccurate estimate, but each string of paint I saw being shot from a pneumag yielded at least 1 break, which is still something I would deam as unacceptable.

So what's the catch? I want to hear from the experiences of Pneumag owners and see whether or not this is the general consensus of those who actually know. If not, then what am I seeing in all these online videos?

************************************************** ************************
EDIT: Ok, here are some links to youtube;

Level 10 and 9 volt Revy used; broke 2 balls

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y_1LNDh2PHE

Level 10 and Halo; broke 1 ball ...also sounds like he's leaking air

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0FmKeSBv-IA

Level 10 and Halo; broke 1 ball

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f2PBJEfvxn8

Level 10 and Halo; broke 2 balls

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Scz-wJ2AWk

Level 10 and Halo; broke at least 1 ball (as soon as the camera panned back into the gun while it was firing a string, you can spot a break)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr8AGql68Y

Level 10 and Halo; broke 1 ball, but this appeared to be a mid-air collision due to a short-stroked ball

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3t9TxnGJGgA

[rawbutter]

I have a pneumag, and I've experienced no paint chopping issues. As long as your LX is set up correctly, you shouldn't have any issues.

What videos are you referring to? Perhaps if you post links, we can explain why those people are experiencing issues.

[ghost flanker]

I have a pneumag, and I've experienced no paint chopping issues. As long as your LX is set up correctly, you shouldn't have any issues.

What videos are you referring to? Perhaps if you post links, we can explain why those people are experiencing issues.

I'm back on dial up again for right now (you'll have to wait for me to post the links), but you can still check it out for yourself. Just go to youtube and enter "pneumag" in the search. Look specifically for videos pertaining to live fire demonstrations (as opposed to dry fire). You're bound to witness more than one piece of footage of paintballs being chopped to hell.

Believe me when I say that I'm not trying to bash pneumags. On the contrary, I would like to confirm that Pneumags are not inherent ball blenders so I can just relax and give myself the go ahead to invest in a kit for my own automag. I just want to make sure I know all the pros, cons, ins and outs before I buy... including what to look for and what to stay away from.

Btw, rawbutter, since you seem to not have ball breakage issues with your pneumag, where or from whom did you obtain your setup?

[drg]

My setup has no breakage problems, in the youtube video or on the field ...

[Mongoose]

i have chopped when trying to tune my p-mags, but once they are tuned...they rip with no problems.
like any other mag....you gotta tune your lvl 10

[shorty24]

In honest answer to your question (being the owner of 2 previous pneumags, building one completely on my own), the reason I always see chopping in vids is that we're so excited that as soon as the almighty pneumag is up and running, life becomes "OMG, where's the camera, I GOTTA SHOOT THIS THING RIGHT NOW!!!" and we charge outside, throw some paint in it, and let it rip on camera. Forgetting that we need to spend at least 2 more hours fine-tuning it. For real.

If you build a pneumag, provided everything was done correctly, you shouldn't experience ANY more chopping problems than you would with any other high-rof lvl 10 mag. I personally never had a problem with chopping ONCE the mag was fully tuned, although pneumags will require more general tuning and maintenance than regular mech guns.

[Automagrt666]

I've never once chopped with my pneumag and I've shot plenty through it. Keep in mind some of those "breaks" might just be barrel busts do to old paint etc. I know when I test fire in my backyard I usually use my oldest paint first, and those tend to blow up in mid flight somtimes, you know how it can be. But if awesome firepower with pure mechanical pwnage is what you're looking for then look no further than a pneumag. You may even want to check out cyber's new magnet mod, it may sell you over :)

Nick

[cerrik]

I keep reading everyone posting "You gotta tuen your p-mag" What exactly are ya'll talking about? Tuning the Lvl10? I have a pneumag that is in various states of togetherness. (It used to be in an airsoft frame, I'm putting it into my y-gripped Minimag) Unfortuantly, I don't have a lvl10, never had a chop so far. Is there something I should know about tuning the LPR or something?

(and yes, as soon as I can I'm getting a lvl10, or straight upgrading to the full X-valve)

[Xyxyll]

My understanding of the "pneu" part of a pneu mag is that it is a modification that affects strictly the trigger region... in essence allowing you to consider the trigger setup an isolated "black box" that receives an input and provides an output to the valve. If the valve experiences the same forces from the sear, it should have no affect on chopping. Tuning the level 10 bolt is key to a chopless setup.

[Spider-TW]

I've never once chopped with my pneumag and I've shot plenty through it. Keep in mind some of those "breaks" might just be barrel busts do to old paint etc. I know when I test fire in my backyard I usually use my oldest paint first, and those tend to blow up in mid flight somtimes, you know how it can be. But if awesome firepower with pure mechanical pwnage is what you're looking for then look no further than a pneumag. You may even want to check out cyber's new magnet mod, it may sell you over :)

Nick

I often shoot party mix paint in my mags on rec days since they digest it well.

Some of the breaks you see could be one ball hitting another near the end of the barrel. As you try to go faster, you can still chuff a ball out and the next one can come out at normal velocity and hit the earlier one outside the barrel. However, if there is enough pressure for the bolt to pop out, there seems to be enough to get the ball out of the barrel before the next ball. The only problem I've had is keeping a detent working in the ULE body. I wasn't used to the idea of tuning a detent and killed two over the first several cases.

There is no buffering, delays, or latches in a pneumag. Your fingers are it. If your stroke isn't clean enough to allow the 10 - 20 or so milliseconds to recharge, you get a limp ball. My son set up a program on his computer to count key strokes and practiced with it. He can run my pneumag much cleaner than I can. With an electro you can be sloppy all you want and still look good. With a pneumag, that stream of pant shows exactly what your fingers are doing. That's what makes them fun. Kind of like guitar hero.

[rawbutter]

In honest answer to your question (being the owner of 2 previous pneumags, building one completely on my own), the reason I always see chopping in vids is that we're so excited that as soon as the almighty pneumag is up and running, life becomes "OMG, where's the camera, I GOTTA SHOOT THIS THING RIGHT NOW!!!" and we charge outside, throw some paint in it, and let it rip on camera. Forgetting that we need to spend at least 2 more hours fine-tuning it. For real.

Truth! I'm guilty of doing that.

Keep in mind some of those "breaks" might just be barrel busts do to old paint etc.

Yeah... I've done that too. When you're wasting paint for a youtube video, you often find the oldest, crappiest stuff that you have laying around.

[Mongoose]

I often shoot party mix paint in my mags on rec days since they digest it well.

Some of the breaks you see could be one ball hitting another near the end of the barrel. As you try to go faster, you can still chuff a ball out and the next one can come out at normal velocity and hit the earlier one outside the barrel. However, if there is enough pressure for the bolt to pop out, there seems to be enough to get the ball out of the barrel before the next ball. The only problem I've had is keeping a detent working in the ULE body. I wasn't used to the idea of tuning a detent and killed two over the first several cases.

There is no buffering, delays, or latches in a pneumag. Your fingers are it. If your stroke isn't clean enough to allow the 10 - 20 or so milliseconds to recharge, you get a limp ball. My son set up a program on his computer to count key strokes and practiced with it. He can run my pneumag much cleaner than I can. With an electro you can be sloppy all you want and still look good. With a pneumag, that stream of pant shows exactly what your fingers are doing. That's what makes them fun. Kind of like guitar hero.

very well said....and very true!!!!

[ghost flanker]

I often shoot party mix paint in my mags on rec days since they digest it well.

Some of the breaks you see could be one ball hitting another near the end of the barrel. As you try to go faster, you can still chuff a ball out and the next one can come out at normal velocity and hit the earlier one outside the barrel. However, if there is enough pressure for the bolt to pop out, there seems to be enough to get the ball out of the barrel before the next ball. The only problem I've had is keeping a detent working in the ULE body. I wasn't used to the idea of tuning a detent and killed two over the first several cases.

There is no buffering, delays, or latches in a pneumag. Your fingers are it. If your stroke isn't clean enough to allow the 10 - 20 or so milliseconds to recharge, you get a limp ball. My son set up a program on his computer to count key strokes and practiced with it. He can run my pneumag much cleaner than I can. With an electro you can be sloppy all you want and still look good. With a pneumag, that stream of pant shows exactly what your fingers are doing. That's what makes them fun. Kind of like guitar hero.

Ok, well that makes a lot more sense than "they were probably just using bad paint," which is a little presumptuous. This is especially apparent in http://youtube.com/watch?v=3t9TxnGJGgA where a break can seemingly be spotted a foot away from the muzzle (but who really knows for sure when it comes to crude video).

Also, in http://youtube.com/watch?v=f2PBJEfvxn8 you can see that the guy is chugging balls all over the place, further evidence for the mid-air collision theory. But, does it really take that much skill to avoid chugging balls with a pneumag like he did?

Another thing,... in every one of these videos I've posted (along with the few youtube videos with no apparent ball breaks that I found), you can hear a lot of split second hissing during rapid fire. What is that? Does frequent short-stroking come with the territory for pneumags or is that just the Level 10 working?

[rawbutter]

in every one of these videos I've posted (along with the few youtube videos with no apparent ball breaks that I found), you can hear a lot of split second hissing during rapid fire. What is that? Does frequent short-stroking come with the territory for pneumags or is that just the Level 10 working?

If the pneumag isn't working right (for example, the LPR isn't high enough), short stroking can be an issue. It's just something you have to play with until it's working.

More often, though, the hissing is from the Level Ten. (The technical term is "chuffing.") It's when a ball doesn't feed fast enough (which is easily done with a pneumag) and the Level Ten bounces off the ball and resets.

If you watch any videos of good pneumags without paint, you'll never see that chuffing. For example:

http://www.rawbutter.com/images/paintball/shooting.wmv

(me shooting my pneumag)

[IMG]http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t272/t0nnn/paintball%20shieet/th_goodpneumag.jpg[/IMG]
(mongoose shooting his)

[ghost flanker]

Truth! I'm guilty of doing that.



Yeah... I've done that too. When you're wasting paint for a youtube video, you often find the oldest, crappiest stuff that you have laying around.

I recently posted 6 video links at the top of the thread. The first video is a guy test firing in his backyard. The fact that he was using a 2nd rate hopper and a near empty hpa tank may suggest that his paint was half-*** quality, as well.

But the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 6th videos appear to all be shot at paintball fields. These guys may or may not even be bothering to fill their hoppers with old crap paint before they head in to their next game.

The 5th video is a demonstration by Max Vetter (he himself created 2 paint clouds with one hopper of paint). He is likely to be using quality paint.