EMAG still has pressure after removing air line - RESOLVED

[syxxty]

Hope you EMag wizards can help. I have a Automag classic body/rail with an old Emag valve. I just aired it up and it shot fine. Removed air and could not remove the valve because the On/Off pin was sticking out and the trigger had pressure. Pulling the trigger and pushing the bolt back did not relieve any pressure. I tool off the rail and used a screwdriver to push the pin in and slide the valve back and of course the On/Off assembly popped off. I found the on/off assembly and pin but no orings that go on top of the assembly. Please help me with these two questions:

1) Why does the pressure remain in the valve after air is removed?
2) What belongs on top of the on/off assembly? I tried a little white Oring (from a classic valve repar kit) that fit around the top of the pin and in the circle groove in the valve but the pin did not slide enough and was not shooting properly. I have heard some mention a quad oring. I could not find a diagram of the Emag valve... just the RT and it just looks like the little white O ring.


Thank you very much in advance!

[syxxty]

After thinking on it over night here are my thoughts:

1) The X-Valve diagram (same as Emag valve right?) shows two o rings above the on/off assembly but AGD website only has one small one for sale. Thinking it is just one small o ring that sits in the groove and that it is slightly different than the one in the classic parts kit.
2) I think it might be the level 10 bolt spring is too strong or the level 10 carrier is too tight causing the bolt to stick

anyone want to confirm thought process? Thanks.

[nak81783]

1. Have to ask the obvious, are you running a check valve (usually coupled with remote lines)? Look at the link below. Make sure everything in the valve is clean, free of debris, and all orings are in good shape. You might just want to do a rebuild to be safe. A picture of your setup would help; we might see an accessory (e.g. on/off) that could be the culprit.
2. http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/down...agexploded.pdf
The link will show what parts you need. As you stated, there's a special quad oring at the top of an e-mag valve, but I don't think that is required in your setup.

What is the length of the on/off pin and trigger rod? Is there a credit card thickness gap between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when pressurized?

Be careful. Wear eye protection at a minimum. Sounds dangerous disassembling a pressurized marker.


-Nathan

[OPBN]

If the valve came directly out of an Emag, it will most likely have a Quatd o-ring as well as a .712 pin length. The shorter pin length could be making it difficult to push the pin back in especially if your trigger rod isn't adjusted out enough. It is not uncommon for the on/off pin to stick out after degassing the marker.

[syxxty]

Thanks for the reply Nathan.

1. I do not have any check valve. I'll get pics tonight if needed. I did disassemble, clean, and oil the regulator seat, valve, power tube, and on/off (is there much more to take apart?). A rebuild would be a good idea.
2. Yes... I already looked at the emag diagram and xmag diagram and am getting confused. Right now I think I need one single little white O ring above my on/off. Planning on calling AGD tech support when they open and get what I need ordered.

I can get the caliper out and measure the pin/trigger rod tonight. It shoots fine with nice bounce at 950-1050 psi (or did until I lost my on/off o rings). I don't remember a gap between the trigger and pin but I'll double check. Do you think my level 10 shims or spring could be preventing the bolt from moving forward enough to vent? I would think would have found similar situation in my forum searches if that is the case (i seem to have read about every other lvl 10 issue).

YES.. it scared the crap out of me when it poped out (i thought the pressure was minimal... it was not). I now wrap a towel around the back of the valve and slowly unscrew the pressure regulator. The pressure is released slowly for the most part. You still get a small pop but the towel easily catches everything.


Thanks again.

[OPBN]

You dont really need to measure the trigger rod, just make sure it is sitting about a credit cards thickness from the back of the trigger. The on/off pin length will most likely be .712.

[nak81783]

Read this thread for a good description of when the quad oring is needed, mech vs electro, pin length and oring combos, etc.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?260222-EMAG-quad-oring&highlight=Quad+oring

Only other thing to clean and inspect is the reg valve pin assembly.

Some of the old valves only had one oring at the top, so that may be the case with old emag valves as well. I remember many people wanted them milled out for two orings, so they could install a ULT.


-Nathan

[OPBN]

That thread^^ is more in regards to what to use in an Emag, not using an Emag valve in a mech Mag. And yes, Emag valves only use the one O-ring similiar to a Retro Valve. At least the Emag valve that I have does.

[nak81783]

True, that is the subject of the thread, but one can extract the "factory" AGD setup for each valve type from the thread.


-Nathan

[syxxty]

Great! I think my valve needs a single oring above the on/off. The one from the classic repair kit fits too snug and didn't let the trigger re-seat fully each time.. guess I'll have to pony up the $4 and get emag o rings.

I'll also dig a little deeper on my reg valve pin assembly and see if that resolves the air release problem.

Thanks for all the help.

[syxxty]

Called AGD and they explained that the on/off top oring(s) could be one of four configurations: single white o ring, Single black o ring with square cross section, two nested o rings, and the quad o ring (not sure if nested and quad are the same). What I gather is the single o ring configurations has a step milled in the valve. The black o ring was meant to seal slightly sooner that the white round oring and may allow the shorter trigger pin to function correctly. I think this is my original setup but I lost the black oring. I measured my trigger pin and it was 0.709 so I assume its the .712 pin. Also the single white o ring is the same size as one from the classic valve but will not work properly due to different materials and slide frictions against the pin. I ended up ordering the .750 pin and a pack of white orings.

Also the tech said I should see if there is an o ring stuck in the regulator brass part with the grooves. It was not so I still don't know why the pressure is not releasing. I added more oil in the regulator. We will see.

[OPBN]

Get the o-rings and on/off pin, make sure your trigger rid is adjusted correctly and then see where you are. A lot of times one small variable will cause an issue. Trying to tech it without the proper parts is difficult.

[nak81783]

My disclaimer is that OPBN is right that it's best to wait for all the parts.

That said, you may be able to try the following, if you so choose. Wear adequate personal protection equipment at all times.

1. Reassemble the marker without an oring on top of the on/off. Since your original hypothesis was the upper on/off oring causing the issues, assembling without it will test that hypothesis.

2. Air up the marker WITHOUT holding the trigger back. You may want to hold the bolt back with a barrel swab. I'm thinking the sear will catch, and everything will seal up properly. Without the top oring, the gun should only leak when you pull the trigger, so don't pull the trigger. Regardless, when you air up, expect a leak, and be prepared to quickly remove air supply.

3. If there is no leak, check for the credit card thickness gap between the trigger and trigger rod.

4. Carefully remove your air supply, and see if the marker stays pressurized. If depressurized, the new parts should solve the issue. If pressurized, it's something else, and it's time to post a pic of your entire setup. To further confirm this, you can redo these steps with the Teflon oring from the Classic kit, and see if results vary.

It's good you ordered the .750 pin. Now you have what you need to set your RT bounce to your liking, by playing with pin length and oring combinations and input pressure. A quad oring might offer a little more, but probably not much. Also, if the trigger gap is right, I wouldn't change it. Sounds like you already had good bounce, if that's what you're after, so a trigger rod length change would probably cause more harm than good.

FYI, the true white oring from the Classic kit is Teflon, the ones you ordered (a semi-transparent hued white) are urethane (AGD uses cast, there are also cheaper millable gum urethane orings which may not be adequate for Automag applications), and the black orings are Buna-N.


-Nathan

[syxxty]

Thanks for all the info and suggestions. AGD said the parts should arrive today but think I will try your suggestions first. Good to know the oring composition. I don't think I can use the quad oring or the nested oring unless I get my valve milled to remove the step inside. Will report back.

[syxxty]

RESOLVED!

Got the parts from AGD and it did not fix the problem. The longer pin felt much better and the urethane oring worked great but still had pressure in the "chamber" after airing it down. I removed the regulator pin and blew through the pin (ensuring all three holes were clear). I felt a little resistance at first so I think something may have been in there. Re-assembled and when the air was removed the pressure properly released. Thanks for all the help.