The leaky level 10/on/off assembly valve thread of death

[Stealthpanda]

In my infinite quest to stop my gun from leaking, I may or may not have found other issues, but most definately found more questions. The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo? Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal? And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston. I swear, I am almost at the part where NOTHING is the same as when I bought it, inside and out. Are leaks a part of owning a mag? Am I being too anal? Thinking I had things figured out, and then this: Kind of frustrating.

EDIT: Just found this, as I type:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?8798-Spring-pack

I didn't notice mine moving last time I took it apart, but if TK says its normal... fine with me!

[Laku]

In my infinite quest to stop my gun from leaking, I may or may not have found other issues, but most definately found more questions. The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo? Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal? And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston. I swear, I am almost at the part where NOTHING is the same as when I bought it, inside and out. Are leaks a part of owning a mag? Am I being too anal? Thinking I had things figured out, and then this: Kind of frustrating.

EDIT: Just found this, as I type:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?8798-Spring-pack

I didn't notice mine moving last time I took it apart, but if TK says its normal... fine with me!

I don't have any leaks on my mags. So no it's not part of owning mag. You're not telling where it's leaking. Have you managed to isolate the leak to specific part of the valve?

Can you post a picture of your on/off with the top part that doesn't look like the ones currently sold?

On/off pin should be pretty snug in the top o-ring. What kind of wiggle are you talking about? What do you do when you notice it?

[brassmag]

What valve are you using?

You should never replace an oring in an automag valve unless its cracked and usless or missing..

Auromag valve orings break in and get better with time. They can last forever if kept slightly lubed. 20 year old orings are the best.

Dont over lube the valve, it dosent need much.

It's like flooding a carburetor, you have lubed it to a point where it fails to hold pressure... dry it off dont lube it at all.

Dont epect leaking out of a automag valve, after break in you will have less problems than any other gun on the market by far.

[Stealthpanda]

I don't have any leaks on my mags. So no it's not part of owning mag. You're not telling where it's leaking. Have you managed to isolate the leak to specific part of the valve?

Can you post a picture of your on/off with the top part that doesn't look like the ones currently sold?

On/off pin should be pretty snug in the top o-ring. What kind of wiggle are you talking about? What do you do when you notice it?

Apologies, I got so far ahead of myself posting this before I went to do something else, or that thing called proof-reading, that I didn't even say where it was leaking from! I was pretty generous with oiling, but it was slightly leaking when gassed up, trigger at rest, from the barrel. Touching the bolt changed the tone. Applying slight pressure to, but not firing, the trigger made it stop. That, and the leak I have when I fire the gun/hold in the trigger, which lasts about 1-2 seconds before going away. I changed every o-ring out. >.> I still have all my old ones, but yeah, every o-ring in the gun is new ATM.

This brass part is what I have: http://imageshack.us/a/img255/1633/cimg1576h.jpg

This is what I see when I looked on AGD.com at the on/off assembly: mpuGg8GlJjih2lqcJylow7A.jpg

The visible o-ring on the outside of the bottom of this on/off: miVkN6Olr1rcg2SE3Nll_YA.jpg
(the one I own) has room to move up and down, maybe 1 mm either way.

What valve are you using?

You should never replace an oring in an automag valve unless its cracked and usless or missing..

Auromag valve orings break in and get better with time. They can last forever if kept slightly lubed. 20 year old orings are the best.

Dont over lube the valve, it dosent need much.

It's like flooding a carburetor, you have lubed it to a point where it fails to hold pressure... dry it off dont lube it at all.

Dont epect leaking out of a automag valve, after break in you will have less problems than any other gun on the market by far.

Yeah, I was pretty frugal with the oil >.> and as mentioned above, I definately replaced every o-ring when I got my parts kit/automag. Oops =/

[Freedy500]

Level 10 or level 7. And that on/off looks fine.

[Stealthpanda]

Classic valve, level 10. The bottom on/off picture was a stock picture from google.

[Freedy500]

Classic valve, level 10. The bottom on/off picture was a stock picture from google.

Maybe move up a carrier? And any shims in it? It may be the level 10 with minor issues.

[Stealthpanda]

I believe I over-oiled the gun, and over-oiled being a bit of an understatement. I can move up a carrier, and see how she behaves. New rail arrived, what an excuse to completely tear the gun apart. Hehe... I'll fiddle around with it, since its not leaking enough to drain my tank in a short while, merely an audible leak with my ear near the body.

EDIT: No shims, as this wasn't my hangup from before.

[athomas]

The spring pack in the back of the reg moves, is this normal? I may have used gun oil to lubricate this, in hindsight realizing it said "keep greased". One in the same, or a boo-boo?

What kind of gun oil? Gun oil can eat the orings. Use only synthetic light oil made for pneumatic use. The oil/grease on the spring pack is only to keep it from getting moist and rusting. Grease sticks to the spring better than oil that gets blown off.

Also, the o-ring on the bottom of the bottom of the on/off has some wiggle room, even with using the proper o-ring. Again, normal?

Are you sure you are using the large on-off oring and not the powertube tip oring by mistake? There will be some movement on the oring, but it should be snug on the on-off assembly.

And the top brass part to my on/off looks nothing like any of the current ones sold for an Automag classic. Again, probably an old part, but I didn't know if it was outdated, like in the case of the regulator piston.

The older on-off tops were flat on top with an X cut on the bottom to pass air. The newer on-off tops are symmetrical so there is no top or bottom. They pass air out through holes from the center into an air passage that goes around the outside of the on-off top.



If the mag leaks out the front but stops when you start to pull the trigger, it means the sealing edge of the carrier oring is very close to the level 10 bolt stem vent hole. If there are shims installed in the powertube, remove them. If there are no shims, it means your sear is worn out or you are missing your rail bushing.

[Stealthpanda]

Gold cup gun oil. I put 1 drop in each of the holes on the bottom of the valve marked --Oil--.

I could of sworn the diagram marked that o ring on the bottom of the on/off as "power tube o ring".

http://www.paintball-atlantic.fr/pages/fichestechniques/PaintballAtlantic/Air_Gun_Designs_Automag_c.gif

Is there a difference in flow in the old one vs "new" style?

I have thoroughly frustrated myself today, attempting to remove excess oil, make sure things are working as intended. I have to fiddle with the carrier/o ring again, as something isn't right. I am back to where I started before. Size 1 carrier is a smidge too tight, and 1.5 leaks immediately when I gas it up. No shims installed. Brand new sear. Rail bushing in place. New higher pressure regulator piston installed.

I default back to: Whenever I feel like I have this figured out, I completely don't. I have studied air pathways. Got the gun to chrono about 250, when I read I needed a new regulator piston assembly. Got it, installed it, turned up the velocity, gun cycles, but leaks. Something cool I noticed, was that with the regulator piston assembly I purchased, AGD sent me 2 of a few different o rings. 2 Regulator piston, 2 power tube, 2 teflon on/off. Kudos to them, always appreciate freebies. I have purchased the newer style top on/off part, spring pack, and a misc screw I was missing for mag #2. I don't mind replacing things if they seem out of wack/broken, but its unfortunate to learn that some of these things (outside of the sear and reg piston assembly) were probably unneeded.

It's weird. That leak that developed when I gas the gun up, from rest, goes away if you pull the trigger just slightly. Or changed tone if you press the tip of the bolt. I wasn't bothered by the leak that happens if you hold the trigger, as it went away in about a second or two. On page 4 of the official level 10 problem thread.. I will get this eventually. I appreciate the continued responses, as it seems I am just asking all the same questions that have been asked for the past 10 years. I apologize, but greatly appreciate the input. If I cannot figure this out, the classic valve, how will I ever figure out the X valve? ULT? Etc.
Thank you all, again,
Jason

Pictures of my on/off (the o-ring in question):

Notice how there is at least a 1mm gap between where the o-ring sits, and the entire groove it sits in.

Entire on/off:


Inside of my valve (where the on/off goes):

[Justus]

From the way you describe the leak, I don' think it's your on/off assembly that's the problem there. However, that's a funky looking classic on/off.

[Stealthpanda]

IDK, I feel like once I started replacing the o rings on my on/off, I had more leaks at rest. IIRC, the two are related. Only the brass top part looks weird, everything else looks normal as far as 20 year old valves are concerned.

[blackdeath1k]

Just looks lime an old style on off to me. As for your leak. What you describe tells me its in your power tube stuff. Not the on off. And since I have no experience with a level 10. That's where my help ends. Lol.

[Stealthpanda]

I had my original carrier o ring play the "WTB size 1.25 carrier" sooo I just grabbed a new one, and threw that one back in the bag o' o-rings. Well, in my haste to find a NEW o-ring, I am assuming I grabbed the one I used from before, bringing back all the old leaks I had.

[athomas]

Gold cup gun oil. I put 1 drop in each of the holes on the bottom of the valve marked --Oil--.

Gold cup oil is fine. The holes don't do anything. To get oil into the valve, you need to either wet the orings directly as you install them, or you need to put a couple of drops of oil at the valve inlet or ASA. Then you need to cycle the valve to blow the oil through it.

I could of sworn the diagram marked that o ring on the bottom of the on/off as "power tube o ring".
http://www.paintball-atlantic.fr/pag..._Automag_c.gif

It is a powertube oring. The one I mentioned that it shouldn't be is the powertube tip oring. They are two different orings, the tip oring being slightly larger than the powertube oring.

Is there a difference in flow in the old one vs "new" style?

No. The old one works fine. Its just easier to use the newer one because you can't accidentally put it in upside down.

I have thoroughly frustrated myself today, attempting to remove excess oil, make sure things are working as intended. I have to fiddle with the carrier/o ring again, as something isn't right. I am back to where I started before. Size 1 carrier is a smidge too tight, and 1.5 leaks immediately when I gas it up. No shims installed. Brand new sear. Rail bushing in place. New higher pressure regulator piston installed.

It's weird. That leak that developed when I gas the gun up, from rest, goes away if you pull the trigger just slightly. Or changed tone if you press the tip of the bolt.

When you pull the trigger slightly, the tip of the sear pushes the bolt back slightly as it rotates down. This pushes the bolt stem vent hole farther back in the powertube carrier past the sealing edge of the oring. This indicates that the bolt is sitting too far forward. Since you have a new sear and have your rail bushing installed, I don't know what the issue is. One thing that you might try is to take out your carrier and remove theoring. Get some 600 grit sand paper. Put the sandpaper on a flat surface facing up. Rub the front of the carrier on the sandpaper against the flat surface and take a couple of thousandths of metal off. Reinstall it. This should allow the carrier to sit farther forward and seal the bolt stem vent hole while at rest. If you don't want to do that to your carrier, you can do the same thing to your powertube tip instead only sand the back or it.