Slow recharge, slow trigger, then POP!

[UncleStasiu]

I have a Classic that I bought off Craigslist. Hadn't been used in years, but it seemed to work ok. For the heck of it, stuck an Air America Black Ice reg bottom housing on the back of the valve. Reused the piston, adjuster, spring pack, and reg seat from the Mag. (I know reusing the reg seat is a no-no, I was just curious at this point.) Lo and behold, it works! Awesome. Just to be safe, I fully rebuilt the gun with an AGD kit, then added CCM fittings and a hardline, and it still worked fine.

Problem #1: Today I went to target shoot, and I can't get more than .5bps. It takes more than half a second for the trigger to "click" back. If I pull the trigger immediately after it finally returns, it farts at me. (Aside, is this what chuffing is?) It takes a second or longer before it recharges enough to actually fire a shot at full velocity. There's an audible hiss that seems to be coming from inside the valve while it's recharging. If I crank in the adjuster, velocity goes up but doesn't improve cycle rate. I switched back to the original Classic valve back thinking that might be the problem, along with a new reg seat, but no change. After cleaning out the on/off a few times, cleaning everything, staring at operating animations, and generally fiddling for an hour and a half, I gave up and went in to hang out with my toddler. ("Daddy sad because paintball gun is bwoken." That's right, kid.)

Problem #2: It's been a good 5 hours since I degassed, pulled the trigger a few times, removed the tank, and hung it on the wall. Thought maybe I'll try cleaning the on/off again? Pull it off the wall, pull out the field strip screw, pull the trigger to make sure the pin doesn't catch, and slide the valve back. Scared the poop out of me when the on/off pin comes loudly rocketing out the fieldstrip hole, ricochets off my leg and makes the radiator ring nicely. I thought Mags degas pretty thoroughly? Am I doing something wrong, or is there something wrong with the gun?

I can only assume one of you is going to say replace the number whatever o-ring and it'll be perfect, and I'm going to feel like a moron, but better to feel like a moron and have a working Mag than the opposite.

[Laku]

Seems like something is jamming your "Regulator Valve Pin" so I'd check the regulator area for any dirt, also check that the valve pin isn't bent. But the problem is definitely in that area.
I suppose it could be something jamming the piston as well.

[Cyco-Dude]

gun still being pressurized after removing tank...i've had that happen before. pressurized air is obviously in the air chamber, enough to blow the pin out. but not enough to push the bolt forward to escape due the to spring pressure. i think it happens sometimes when your tank is low? i'm not sure...

bolt slow to return...do you have a level 7 or level 10 bolt? if you aren't sure, post a picture. if you have a level 7 bolt, maybe try a different power tube o-ring as yours may be too tight (they do vary in size, and some new o-rings are bad). or, try a larger power tube spacer (ie, try a .220 if you have a .215). this will let the o-ring sit further down on the bolt stem, so there should be less drag. you could also try swapping the bolt spring out with a new one if you haven't already, as they do wear out eventually.

if you have a level 10 bolt installed, you need to tune it. first put the gold spring on the bolt and remove all shims inside the power tube if any are installed. next, while using the same carrier o-ring, find the largest carrier that does not leak.

[Laku]

gun still being pressurized after removing tank...i've had that happen before. pressurized air is obviously in the air chamber, enough to blow the pin out. but not enough to push the bolt forward to escape due the to spring pressure. i think it happens sometimes when your tank is low? i'm not sure...

Thing that makes me believe it's in the valve pin or piston is that he removed the tank and it still held pressure. All the pressure from the air chamber should bleed out of the asa if regulator is working like it should.

[Cyco-Dude]

all i know is i'm glad to have a bunch of automags, that way i can just swap things out until i either find what was wrong or the problem somehow fixes itself!

[Laku]

I've never had this happen to me, so I'm just trying to deduce what it could be. And I could be totally wrong in the end.

[athomas]

If it was the regulator pin or regulator oring then your velocity would not be steady or adjustable. This indicates that the regulator part is probably working properly.

As you removed the valve, the air in the chamber should have been able to push the bolt forward and escape as the bolt spring relaxed. Since it did not, it indicates that the on-off is probably restricting the air flow and causing air to be trapped in the regulator part of the valve. This pressure would also push on the top of the on-off pin and fire it out as soon as it was free to move. I would check the on-off area of the gun to make sure everything is exactly where it should be. Check that the sear pin is fully seated as well, to make sure the sear is sitting down in the rail properly.

[Laku]

If it was the regulator pin or regulator oring then your velocity would not be steady or adjustable. This indicates that the regulator part is probably working properly.

Shouldn't it then bleed all the air out when bottle is removed?

[UncleStasiu]

Thanks for the quick replies! I poked at it today and here's where I am after a thorough cleaning and no improvement.

Reg pin: I think it's straight. It rolls on surface plate with no visible wobble or eccentricity. Any better way to check straightness?

Bolt: (The bolt moves fine, it's the trigger I have to wait for) Level 7, .220, brand new OEM spring. All o-rings throughout the gun are brand new except for the power tube tip, the one that just holds the tip from unscrewing. The bolt moves so smoothly, I was almost worried about the opposite, that o-ring under the spacer was too loose. Swapped to another ring, same problem. Should I go to a smaller spacer?

Reg piston: Just saw my spring stack is very loose and floppy on its shaft. This is still the original part. Could it be collapsed/fatigued? Would that even cause the problem? Now I'm wondering what happens when the spring stack doesn't have enough travel or strength. It would lead to underpressurizing for a given setting of the adjuster, but it should be possible to compensate by turning the adjuster in further. Unless the spring travel is the limiter... Note: this thought is from years of using Uniregs: same type of spring, but longer, and they always seem to be tight and firm.

Sear: Also just noticed. Top of the sear catch, the front, grind/stamp marks are very faint. Doesn't look like wear, looks like someone may have attempted the Ravi Chopra trigger mod, step one. (Polish top of sear. Step 2: Side angle on top of sear. Step 3: grind on/off pin. Step 2 and 3 are definitely not done on this one.) I'd think this would lead to hot shots from the bolt releasing before the on/off is closed, not slow recharge. Thoughts?

Cyco's Mag-o-Rama paintball pick-a-part: This is where my life is heading. I actually have another supposedly known good Classic valve on the way specifically to be able to swap out. Also, about to order a new piston, spring, pin, and sear from Tuna. I'd just like to exhaust all options before throwing even more cash at it as I'm in the midst of spending a wife-angering amount of money on a complete brand new x-valve mag build.

[UncleStasiu]

If it was the regulator pin or regulator oring then your velocity would not be steady or adjustable. This indicates that the regulator part is probably working properly.

As you removed the valve, the air in the chamber should have been able to push the bolt forward and escape as the bolt spring relaxed. Since it did not, it indicates that the on-off is probably restricting the air flow and causing air to be trapped in the regulator part of the valve. This pressure would also push on the top of the on-off pin and fire it out as soon as it was free to move. I would check the on-off area of the gun to make sure everything is exactly where it should be. Check that the sear pin is fully seated as well, to make sure the sear is sitting down in the rail properly.

Just using my eyecrometer, it seems that the bolt is still sealing by the time the on/off pin clears the frame mounting hole. I could understand a little bit of pressure being held, just by the way the valve works, but the pin didn't "foop" out across my desk, it fired hard enough to go across the room.

In the interest of completeness and sanity, I just dropped in a brand new RT on/off assembly I have here and no changes. (I'd been planning on using it in this gun anyways, to lighten the trigger pull)

[SPLATTER-ZONED]

My friends Mag had the same problem. Check that your trigger frame is not too tight/too loose, or that you are not missing the guide pin from the rail to the trigger frame. (the one that sits in front of the field strip screw. I can't seem to find the proper name for this part.)


SZ

[Laku]

Reg pin: I think it's straight. It rolls on surface plate with no visible wobble or eccentricity. Any better way to check straightness?

I think that would show it if it was bent enough to cause trouble.

Bolt: (The bolt moves fine, it's the trigger I have to wait for) Level 7, .220, brand new OEM spring. All o-rings throughout the gun are brand new except for the power tube tip, the one that just holds the tip from unscrewing. The bolt moves so smoothly, I was almost worried about the opposite, that o-ring under the spacer was too loose. Swapped to another ring, same problem. Should I go to a smaller spacer?

The spacer you got should be fine. And as the bolt holds air, the o-ring is working as it should.
Is the trigger limp? If yes, then I think it's the on/off.

Reg piston: Just saw my spring stack is very loose and floppy on its shaft. This is still the original part. Could it be collapsed/fatigued? Would that even cause the problem? Now I'm wondering what happens when the spring stack doesn't have enough travel or strength. It would lead to underpressurizing for a given setting of the adjuster, but it should be possible to compensate by turning the adjuster in further. Unless the spring travel is the limiter... Note: this thought is from years of using Uniregs: same type of spring, but longer, and they always seem to be tight and firm.

You can test by putting a washer in the bottom of the velocity adjustment nut.



Trying the valve with that RT on/off would definitely tell if the on/off was the problem.

[UncleStasiu]

The bushing that the field strip screw runs through? Yep, that's still in there. Just tried loosening and tightening the frame screws. Neither direction seems to help. I'm just about ready to give up, wait until the other valve shows up, and see what happens then.

[UncleStasiu]

The trigger is limp after firing until the on/off resets. One faint click and the trigger pops forward, 2nd louder click and there's actual normal tension on the trigger. There was no change in the problem with the RT on/off, just a little lighter pull in general. I'll try the washer. (starting to run low on pressure. My last tank is down to 1k)

[Laku]

One thing, is the trigger rod properly adjusted? Having the safety on, there should be a gap that's about credit card thickness between the back of the trigger and and tip of the rod when the gun is gassed up.

edit. Won't be this if the trigger is limp.