Slow recharge, slow trigger, then POP!

[vintage]

the on off pin is what pushes sear back to reset, so if its not resetting the pin is not being pushed back down after you release the trigger. something is restricting the air into the on/off.

[Laku]

The trigger is limp after firing until the on/off resets. One faint click and the trigger pops forward, 2nd louder click and there's actual normal tension on the trigger. There was no change in the problem with the RT on/off, just a little lighter pull in general. I'll try the washer. (starting to run low on pressure. My last tank is down to 1k)

What output pressure does you tank have? It should be about 800 to be safe.Though classic valve will probably work on lower pressure than that, the rule of thumb is 800 or more.

[Cyco-Dude]

Bolt: (The bolt moves fine, it's the trigger I have to wait for) Level 7, .220, brand new OEM spring. All o-rings throughout the gun are brand new except for the power tube tip, the one that just holds the tip from unscrewing. The bolt moves so smoothly, I was almost worried about the opposite, that o-ring under the spacer was too loose. Swapped to another ring, same problem. Should I go to a smaller spacer?

Reg piston: Just saw my spring stack is very loose and floppy on its shaft. This is still the original part. Could it be collapsed/fatigued? Would that even cause the problem? Now I'm wondering what happens when the spring stack doesn't have enough travel or strength. It would lead to underpressurizing for a given setting of the adjuster, but it should be possible to compensate by turning the adjuster in further. Unless the spring travel is the limiter... Note: this thought is from years of using Uniregs: same type of spring, but longer, and they always seem to be tight and firm.

Sear: Also just noticed. Top of the sear catch, the front, grind/stamp marks are very faint. Doesn't look like wear, looks like someone may have attempted the Ravi Chopra trigger mod, step one. (Polish top of sear. Step 2: Side angle on top of sear. Step 3: grind on/off pin. Step 2 and 3 are definitely not done on this one.) I'd think this would lead to hot shots from the bolt releasing before the on/off is closed, not slow recharge. Thoughts?

bolt is fine; the air pressure actually moves the power tube o-ring up and seals against the bolt stem. if you've ever fired the gun and taken the valve out, you may notice the bolt is kind of "stuck"; thats the o-ring holding it in there.

your spring pack is fine.

i would post a picture of your sear.

finally, if you haven't already, change you power tube o-ring. even new ones can be out-of-spec. i've had a couple that were way too tight, and had too much friction to operate correctly.

One thing, is the trigger rod properly adjusted

something is restricting the air into the on/off.

What output pressure does you tank have?

i'll just add...are you using a remote line? are you screwing the tank all the way into the asa? sometimes screwing the tank all the way in can actually restrict air flow. try just screwing it in until the gun pressurizes, then another quarter turn or so. to rule out the pressure output variable, test with another high-output (850 psi) tank and see what that does.

[athomas]

The trigger is limp after firing until the on/off resets. One faint click and the trigger pops forward, 2nd louder click and there's actual normal tension on the trigger.

The first click is the on-off pushing the sear forward. The second click is the chamber pressure pushing the bolt against the sear. Usually they are just one click, because it happens so fast. Yours is happening really slow.

I would investigate the ASA. If your bottle is turned in too far, it could actually shut off the air supply. Try the steps indicated by Cyco_Dude.

Shouldn't it then bleed all the air out when bottle is removed?

Not all of it. The pressure on the regulator piston assembly keeps the regulator piston pushed back and the spring on the regulator pin will make sure the regulator stays sealed as long as the pressure in the back of the valve is above the pressure required to push that assembly forward to open it. Usually the air vents out the front when you release valve because the bolt can get pushed forward a bit as the bolt spring becomes more relaxed. Air retention becomes more of an issue with level 10 bolts because it takes more pressure to push the bolt forward as you remove the valve. Air retention is usually not that big of an issue in a classic since it is regulated pressure and restricted to the force of the spring tension on the reg pin assembly. There is something else at play here.

[Laku]

Not all of it. The pressure on the regulator piston assembly keeps the regulator piston pushed back and the spring on the regulator pin will make sure the regulator stays sealed as long as the pressure in the back of the valve is above the pressure required to push that assembly forward to open it. Usually the air vents out the front when you release valve because the bolt can get pushed forward a bit as the bolt spring becomes more relaxed. Air retention becomes more of an issue with level 10 bolts because it takes more pressure to push the bolt forward as you remove the valve. Air retention is usually not that big of an issue in a classic since it is regulated pressure and restricted to the force of the spring tension on the reg pin assembly. There is something else at play here.

Ok thanks, I didn't know that.

[UncleStasiu]

if you've ever fired the gun and taken the valve out, you may notice the bolt is kind of "stuck"; thats the o-ring holding it in there.

Didn't know that. Neat!

i would post a picture of your sear.

Will do as soon as I get home.

finally, if you haven't already, change you power tube o-ring. even new ones can be out-of-spec. i've had a couple that were way too tight, and had too much friction to operate correctly.

Tried all 4 I have. 2 brand new, 2 previously installed. Still nothing...

i'll just add...are you using a remote line? are you screwing the tank all the way into the asa? sometimes screwing the tank all the way in can actually restrict air flow. try just screwing it in until the gun pressurizes, then another quarter turn or so. to rule out the pressure output variable, test with another high-output (850 psi) tank and see what that does.

What output pressure does you tank have? It should be about 800 to be safe.Though classic valve will probably work on lower pressure than that, the rule of thumb is 800 or more.

I would investigate the ASA. If your bottle is turned in too far, it could actually shut off the air supply. Try the steps indicated by Cyco_Dude.

I've been using 2 Ninja standard 4500 reg/tanks. Output is spec'ed at 750-850psi. I don't have a gauge in that range otherwise I'd double check them. One reg is brand new, and has the ball instead of pin. The other is a year or 2 old. The ball one doesn't behave nicely and I have to keep it slightly unscrewed to work with Eclipse ASAs, but the pin one is what had the gun working perfectly previously.

One thing, is the trigger rod properly adjusted? Having the safety on, there should be a gap that's about credit card thickness between the back of the trigger and and tip of the rod when the gun is gassed up.

edit. Won't be this if the trigger is limp.

I try to always make sure the trigger rod is set to have a small amount of freeplay when gassed up. 1-2mm has worked me in the past for "odd" frames, and just factory stock with a CF frame has never failed me.

[Cyco-Dude]

have you considered taking it to a witch doctor? it may be cursed...

[bowcycle]

I know this sounds really odd, but I had a mag do this once. I tried everything I could possibly think of and nothing.

Turns out, the sear pin was worn making the whole assembly not catch everything quite the way it was supposed to. Sometimes it would manifest with air down the barrel. Other times it would manifest with bolt stick. Sometimes it would manifest with this slow recharge and the valve staying pressurized even after bleeding the system.

Try changing out your sear pin.

[Laku]

I've been using 2 Ninja standard 4500 reg/tanks. Output is spec'ed at 750-850psi. I don't have a gauge in that range otherwise I'd double check them. One reg is brand new, and has the ball instead of pin. The other is a year or 2 old. The ball one doesn't behave nicely and I have to keep it slightly unscrewed to work with Eclipse ASAs, but the pin one is what had the gun working perfectly previously.

Those should be fine for Classic mag

I try to always make sure the trigger rod is set to have a small amount of freeplay when gassed up. 1-2mm has worked me in the past for "odd" frames, and just factory stock with a CF frame has never failed me.

Thats fine as well.

I'm still learning towards something in the valve department.

[UncleStasiu]

have you considered taking it to a witch doctor? it may be cursed...

Well I hadn't until NOW. Hard to find a houngan here in Chicago. Think a good ole' Catholic priest will do? "Forgive me father for I have sinned. I attempted to modify the perfection that is a stock Automag."

Also, I actually can't take a pic of my sear as there was an... incident and I no longer have a phone with a camera. (And in this day and age, who still has a point'n'shoot? Smart people, that's who.)

Try changing out your sear pin.

Are you talking about the pin on which the sear pivots? Or the on/off pin? If my sear's been modified or worn down, this could have the same effect. I'm considering just buying a brand new sear already, since I've tried a brand new RT on/off assembly with no improvement. I'll order a new pivot pin as long as I'm at it.

I'm still learning towards something in the valve department.

I guess I'll find out soon enough when my new-to-me valve shows up.

Everyone: Thanks for all the help. I'll post what the solution is once I screw around with another valve and some new parts. Hopefully it'll help someone in the future.

[athomas]

Are you talking about the pin on which the sear pivots?

Yes. That is the one. I mentioned it above as well. It needs to be in good condition, but it also needs to be fully snapped into place. Some rails allow the sear pin to sit down in the slot, but aren't fully seated until you press them in. If they aren't fully seated, they won't allow the on-off pin to open properly.

[Cyco-Dude]

Yes. That is the one. I mentioned it above as well. It needs to be in good condition, but it also needs to be fully snapped into place. Some rails allow the sear pin to sit down in the slot, but aren't fully seated until you press them in. If they aren't fully seated, they won't allow the on-off pin to open properly.

just to expand on this, there are two different styles of sear pins. ones with rounded ends that just drop into the rail, and ones with square edges. the ones with the square edges are the ones you have to press down into the rail. i've been rounding the corners of my square-style pins so i don't have this issue.

[UncleStasiu]

Conclusion, and a solution of sorts...

I aired up with 900psi in the tank. At this point, it was a bone stock Classic with all new o-rings, new spring, cf frame, stock trigger rod length, macroline, and a sear of unknown modifications. Tried firing, same issue. Installed the new to me Classic valve directly out of the box, 3 drops of KC oil in the asa, aired it up, and it worked perfectly. Installed my desired mods one at a time, airing up and testing between each one with no issues. Order of install:
Black Ice reg back
ss macroline and CCM fittings
'cocker frame with readjusted trigger rod
new spring and bumper from AGD kit
RT on/off with quad o-ring

The quad o-ring gave me a hair trigger that would leak down the barrel at the slightest touch, so went back to teflon, and am very happy with it. For the heck of it, I dropped the problematic valve/bolt/spring in again and the damnable thing worked PERFECTLY. Put the modded one back in, put the ex-plagued one in my drawer for Mag #3, and put scotch in my glass.

Apparently what you need to do is bring home another valve. The original one will be scared of being replaced, and will quit misbehaving. Seriously, by the end of it, the only thing different between the valve fronts was the powertube o-ring. Process of elimination says that has to be the problem. I guess that means that I owe Cyco a cookie:

finally, if you haven't already, change you power tube o-ring. even new ones can be out-of-spec. i've had a couple that were way too tight, and had too much friction to operate correctly.

Thanks again to everyone for helping me out!

[athomas]

The quad o-ring gave me a hair trigger that would leak down the barrel at the slightest touch, so went back to teflon, and am very happy with it.

The slight leak down the barrel when you touch the trigger is often caused by using a powertube spacer that is too long. Usually, a tiny leak in a level 7 will go away when you slightly touch the trigger, but if the sear or bolt is worn a bit, or if the sear is modified, the movement of the sear allows the bolt to come forward a tiny bit and the bolt stem separates from the powertube oring. The same thing happens in a level 10 with the vent hole.

[UncleStasiu]

The slight leak down the barrel when you touch the trigger is often caused by using a powertube spacer that is too long. Usually, a tiny leak in a level 7 will go away when you slightly touch the trigger, but if the sear or bolt is worn a bit, or if the sear is modified, the movement of the sear allows the bolt to come forward a tiny bit and the bolt stem separates from the powertube oring. The same thing happens in a level 10 with the vent hole.

So in theory, if the sear is brand new, the spacer is the correct length, and power tube o-ring is good, I should be able to get away with a quad ring in the on/off, correct? I'll have to give that a try. Thanks!