New X-Valve w/ ULT: Not responding to tuning.

[matchstickman]

Setup:
“Custom RT ULE” new from AGD. This has the ULT trigger and X-Valve.
Ninja 68ci/4500 tank at 850 PSI.
Macroline and 2 90 degree fittings.

I am stumped. I ordered the new automag directly from AGD. When it arrived, I aired it up and fired a few shots. No paintballs, but it seemed to work fine. I put a squeegee in the breech and found that the Level 10 bolt worked great. There was a leak which I was able to fix by cleaning and oiling the regulator pin o-rings.

Then today I attempt to chronograph the gun. No luck. It won't fire a paintball. There is enough presure and airflow to fire a paintball, but the Level 10 “trips” against the paintball in the breech and the bolt sticks about 1/3 of the way into the breech, venting air. I can move the bolt back into place with my finger, which stops the leak. The paintball is fully in the breech when this happens. The gun cycles fine without paintballs, but paintballs make the Level 10 trip without reason. Adjusting the velocity does not change anything. I started from all the way off, where the gun will not fire, and gradually increased the pressure until the gun cycles. Same symptoms.

I diagnosed this as a problem with the Level 10.

I had done some reading and research on the Level 10, and the instructions for tuning the Level 10 seem simple enough. I have gone through the process a few times now, and my gun does not behave as the instructions suggest. Without any shims, the Level 10 has a tendency to stick forward as I previously described. The difference between zero shims and several shims is not much. With 3 shims the bolt is less likely to stick forward when the Level 10 trips, but otherwise it is clearly not operating correctly.

I understand that this could be a problem with the ULT, but I have no idea how to determine that.

When I ordered the automag and selected the ULT trigger, I assumed they would include the stock on/off assembly that originally comes with the gun. They did not. I am stuck with the ULT for the time being.

Before you ask, yes, I oiled, it. I can look inside and everything is well lubricated.

Thank you all very much for your time.

EDIT: I have a "Reactor on/off" that came with my other automag, but I don't think it is compatible with the X-Valve.

[vintage]

get ahold of Dave at AGD and see if he will look at it for you. if its relatively new I would think he would for free.

[Tunaman]

Did you tighten the rear field strip screw with the allen wrench? Take all the shims out of the L10 and put 2 shims in the ULT to start. Try that an let us know.

[matchstickman]

Did you tighten the rear field strip screw with the allen wrench? Take all the shims out of the L10 and put 2 shims in the ULT to start. Try that an let us know.

No, I did not tighten the screw with a wrench. I remember now that I am supposed to. I will add/remove shims as you instruct, then tighten that screw. I'll report back tonight.

[maniacmechanic]

Field strip screw tension will/can make a difference in how it will operate ,, I have never tightened FS screws with an allen wr ; field strip = no tool needed , someone correct me if i'm wrong

[nak81783]

Field strip screw tension will/can make a difference in how it will operate ,, I have never tightened FS screws with an allen wr ; field strip = no tool needed , someone correct me if i'm wrong

Intent versus reality. Tightening it up helps alignment. I carry a small hex key in my pocket, but I doubt I'd have time to strip it during a game anyway.

[matchstickman]

Thanks everyone for the help.

Here's what I did:
- No Level 10 shims
- 2 ULT shims (I measured these at 0.006" each)
- Tightened field strip screw with a wrench.
- I turned the reg off and slowly increased until the gun would fire.

Here's what happened:
- The bolt cycles normally without paint.
- When tripped, the Level 10 bolt sticks forward (reset with finger).
- If I hold the trigger back for more than a very short trigger pull, the gun goes full auto (not RT).
- The forward most vent hole is leaking again (reg pin o-rings I think).

So no change really except the new leak which I know probably isn't related. I really wish I just got the regular RT on/off.

[nak81783]

It sounds like numerous orings are failing. What oil are you using?

[matchstickman]

The oil it came with. It's branded as AGD.

[nak81783]

I know you've done some of the following, but bear with me.

Thoroughly inspect for debris/damage, clean, and oil the reg pin assembly, the hole it goes in, and the reg seat oring. Be sure to put everything back together correctly. Reference manuals on AGD's site as required.

Thoroughly inspect for debris/damage, clean, and oil the on/off (especially the top oring) and the hole it goes in. Did you accidentally bend the thin pin when assembling/disassembling or adding/removing shims?

Please confirm you've tuned the Level 10 to these instructions. The instructions that came with it are probably out of date. Better methods have been learned since the Level 10's release.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?43538-**-Official-Level-10-Problems-Thread-**&p=2868950#post2868950

What bolt spring were you using prior to and after tuning to the above instructions?

[Cyco-Dude]

Here's what happened:
- The bolt cycles normally without paint.
- When tripped, the Level 10 bolt sticks forward (reset with finger).

field strip screw could now be too tight. loosen, get it finger tight, then try again. if the bolt sticks, then try tightening the field strip screw with an allen and see if it resets itself as you slowly tighten it. this could also be bolt stick; your level 10 carrier may be too tight. you want the largest level 10 carrier for your carrier o-ring that does not leak to minimize friction.

- If I hold the trigger back for more than a very short trigger pull, the gun goes full auto (not RT).

one or more o-rings are bad. take the valve out, and unscrew the regulator body. there should be a regulator pin o-ring in the front of the regulator body (it may be in the brass regulator seat, so look there too). if it's worn or damaged, it will cause a full-auto effect. clean, inspect, oil or replace as needed. make sure this o-ring is oiled. if it's dry, the gun could shoot once by itself when you first air it up.

- The forward most vent hole is leaking again (reg pin o-rings I think).

regulator pin assembly o-rings bad or contaminated. clean, inspect, and replace if you have not already done so. you do not need to remove the little metal c-clip to remove or install the regulator pin o-rings, with some oil they can stretch over it.

[matchstickman]

I appreciate everyone's help with my gun. I have learned a lot about my mag in the process.

Field Strip Screw:
Adjusting the field strip screw does not alter the behavior.

ULT On/Off:
I replaced and oiled the ULT o-rings with no change. I was worried about the pin, but I am 100% certain I did not bend it. I have been very careful, and the gun was going full-auto before I touched the ULT on/off.

Level 10:
The gun came with the gold (shortest) bolt spring installed. I switched to the red one per the above linked instructions the second time I tried to tune the Level 10. Both springs do the exact same thing. Using those instructions, I can't get to a point where I chrono the gun or start adding shims to the Level 10, though I have added shims before to see what it would do. My understanding is that the bolt springs shouldn't alter the function of the Level 10 bolt with regards to activating and resetting.

Regulator:
It doesn't shoot once by itself when I air up. I don't recall that it ever has. I cleaned every single o-ring, inspecting each with a 9x magnifier, and no change. In an attempt to replace reg pin o-rings, the small c-clip took flight. It's gone. And because Airgun Designs uses a Guinness World Record size, I cannot source one anywhere. I cannot think of an alternative to the c-clip that I might have in my shop. Either way, before the c-clip incident, the gun saw no change in behavior. The reg pin leak would come and go. Usually cleaning and re-oiling it took care of it for a short while, and then it would resurface again.

I am going to call AGD on Monday at (847) 520-7225 and see if they will fix the gun. This is beyond the point of adding a little oil or replacing an o-ring and is unacceptable for a brand new gun (received 3 Feb). The gun never fired a paintball correctly.



Regarding that little c-clip, it seems to me that rather than a c-clip, a thicker end on that reg pin would have made for a more robust o-ring retention feature--perhaps even o-ring grooves would be a better option. I have a small machine shop. When the gun is fixed, I might try making a reg pin that is one piece, with just the two o-rings on it. No c-clip or o-ring spacer needed.

[JKR]

Best of luck, man. You are right, there is no reason a brand new 'gun should be giving you such fits. I had a terrible time tuning a friend's RT Pro with ULT and never did succeed. I chalked up my failure to prevent it leaking to the ULT...I would avoid it like a plague if buying a new Mag. Good luck...I am sure AGD will take care of you.

[Cyco-Dude]

Regarding that little c-clip, it seems to me that rather than a c-clip, a thicker end on that reg pin would have made for a more robust o-ring retention feature--perhaps even o-ring grooves would be a better option. I have a small machine shop. When the gun is fixed, I might try making a reg pin that is one piece, with just the two o-rings on it. No c-clip or o-ring spacer needed.

eh, if agd could've done it better i'm sure they would have...they have some smart engineers. also, that stuff moves.

anyways, definitely send it back. you've done way more than you should have for a new gun.

[matchstickman]

Thanks again to all who contributed to my solution. I want to finalize this thread with some resolution in case anyone else has this problem.

I ended up speaking with Dave from AGD on the phone. No real diagnosis took place as the gun was still behaving very strangely. Dave is a very nice guy and even sent me a free o-ring kit to replace some o-rings. I correspended with Dave via email for a few days, and then he sent "I have to go for a while" and nothing else. I have not heard from him since about a week ago. So first question...

Is everything OK with Dave? I hope all is well.

As for the gun, this is what I learned:

Level 10 Bolt
The Level 10 bolt was never the problem. Without any shims, if the gun leaks out the bolt when pressurized then change to a tighter carrier. I think folks believe the Level 10 is more fragile or sensitive than it really is. I thought it was super sensitive too. It's not. It's very easy to “tune” it to work, and only one easy step away (shims) from working very well, if that step is even needed. When I held the trigger down, air pressure related things still happened. It almost doesn't matter what they are. If the gun is leaking/doing things well after the trigger is held down, the problem is very likely the on/off.

ULT On/Off
I narrowed my problems down the the ULT on/off not closing properly, probably due to the small o-ring against which the pin interfaces to close the on/off. When in place, the o-ring sits 0.002" below the face of the on/off. This means that when the on/off pin touches the o-ring, it moves upward slightly and cannot ever provide enough mechanical pressure against the o-ring to seal. I took about 0.003" off the face of the on/off top and almost fixed the problem. The o-ring it still not sealing perfectly, but an o-ring of a different material fixed that. In the meantime, I ordered a regular R/T on/off which arrived yesterday. The o-rings that came with it did not create a very good seal either, and I ended up replacing those as well. I did have to reduce the pin length to to 0.740" to allow the on/off to open when the trigger is released. Easy fix though, and now the gun works great.

Regulator Pin
That tiny snap-ring is not needed. I confirmed this with Dave, and it's only there for convenience. The regulator pin o-rings continually leak in my gun, so I replaced them with 3 o-rings. I removed the plastic spacer and replaced it with an appropriately sized buna o-ring. The leak is now gone.

Conclusions
The o-rings from 10 years ago are miles ahead of the o-rings of today. The quality of the o-rings in my old parts kit are much, much better than the kit I received from AGD. I ended up using buna-N o-rings in a few places in order to get the gun to stop leaking. Theoretically a urethane o-ring is more durable, but if urethane is leaking I think durability is a moot point.

Side note: I have the RT on/off in my gun right now. At 800 PSI input there is no useful reactivity. It feels lively, but certainly not reactive. I like it this way. I also noticed that the difference in actual trigger feel between the ULT and the RT (without reactivity) is small. I am sticking with the RT for now.