** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[athomas]

Good morning guys,

I've acquired an Automag Classic over the past year and I've fallen in love with it. Just last night I finally received the final piece of the puzzle to make my own perfect marker: the Level X bolt.

I carefully read all the instructions and proceeded to build up the new bolt and such from the instructions and online videos. Sadly to say, none of the carriers work. I've been paintballing since I was 11 and consider myself pretty marker savy, but this has me stumped. I've read that I'm supposed to choose the carrier that is snug with the o-ring along the bolt rod (sorry for the improper usage of words, I'm pretty tired), and in the videos it appears that you can get one that is snug. None of the carriers allow me to make it remotely snug. I air the marker up and it begins to leak down the barrel, but stops when I pull and hold the trigger.

**Update**

I've tried all the carriers, even the one line and one dot, and went through all of the carrier-held o-rings they supplied me. It just seemed like none of them fit enough as described in the instructions; they all seemed pretty loose around the bolt rod no matter which carrier I used. Perhaps I got a bad batch.

I tried all the carriers and added and subtracted shims; but was primarily shimless. I got the marker to actually shoot, but with air still leaking down the barrel and actually out the back near the velocity adjuster, which is also leaking now as well after I had messed with that too.

I'm a bit stumped. I'll fasten everything down again and even call up AGD to see if I can get new o-rings expressed shipped. I really want to use my level X by this weekend!!

Thanks for any help you can provide!

Jake

The carriers aren't supposed to be snug, just not too loose. Its rare that you get orings that are too big on the inside diameter. Usually the small carrier with no lines and no dots will make any oring tight enough. Hopefully the new orings work for you.

While you are waiting, check your sear. Make sure it isn't worn at the tip. That could cause the bolt to sit farther forward, exposing the vent hole a bit causing a consistent leak out the front.

As for the piston assembly, you will have to get a new one of those if you want to run a level 10 bolt on an older classic mag. The older mags worked around 350psi and vented air a bit higher than that for safety. The level 10 bolts often work above 450psi.

[TheMedievalMan]

The way how its doing it. Is that the bolt doesnt fully lock back. It is just missing the sear by a little bit, and the bolt needs to be pushed back a bit by my finger tip in the breach. This only happens once in a while. I will try going up one carrier size, and let you guys know what happens.

[TheMedievalMan]

Okay, so I changed nothing, aired up my tank with my scuba at a fill of around 1200-1300 psi. And I gave it a test run and the bolt did stick maybe 2-3 times in the test. And about two of those times I was able to get it working again by waiting a few seconds for it to reset, or holding the trigger down real quick to get it to reset. So now there is a bit of a leak coming out the bolt, I traced it exactly to the bolt itself. It wasnt leaking before, and I changed nothing in this test. So I am thinking that it may be the carrier oring, or the carrier itself should be changed. What do you guys think?

[Ando]

Try it with a different spring see if you get the same results.

Also, read what Athomas said to redarmy27about his sear.

If after inspecting the sear and changing the spring still doesn't do it for you. Replace the oring.

[athomas]

The way how its doing it. Is that the bolt doesnt fully lock back. It is just missing the sear by a little bit, and the bolt needs to be pushed back a bit by my finger tip in the breach. This only happens once in a while. I will try going up one carrier size, and let you guys know what happens.

That's a normal bolt stick symptom caused by a carrier that is too tight.

Do check your sear as mentioned, in case the bolt is sitting a bit forward when at rest.

[TheMedievalMan]

Its really weird though, like I tested it again the same way. And this time it didnt leak. If it is caused by a too tight carrier, then why would it leak the first test? Wouldnt changing to a lighter carrier cause it to definitely leak? Unless the leak in the first test is not coming from a light carrier, but something else?

[TheMedievalMan]

Okay, so I moved from the one line carrier to a line and a dot. And this is what I have learned. The line and dot carrier definitely shoots more reliably. The bolt stick problem is solved, and when it does stick, it quickly snaps back into place. But right away when I gassed up the gun, it had a slow leak out the bleed hole in the valve. And when the pressure began to get low, it began to leak down the bolt. So I am stuck between having a leak and a reliable shot, vs no leak and some bolt stick. How do I solve both these problems?

[redarmy27]

My new o-rings are on their way! I tinked around with my marker a bit more tonight and I got the velocity adjuster to quit leaking by turning the velocity down. Just for kicks I tried to shoot the marker a bit, which stopped leaking down the barrel once I held the trigger down, and it fired a few times. I just need to get the new O-rings and I should be set. I currently have the red middle spring in, no spacers, and the smallest carrier. Once I get the new o-rings, I'll determine if I'm all in the clear!

Thanks for the help!

Jake

[athomas]

Okay, so I moved from the one line carrier to a line and a dot. And this is what I have learned. The line and dot carrier definitely shoots more reliably. The bolt stick problem is solved, and when it does stick, it quickly snaps back into place. But right away when I gassed up the gun, it had a slow leak out the bleed hole in the valve. And when the pressure began to get low, it began to leak down the bolt. So I am stuck between having a leak and a reliable shot, vs no leak and some bolt stick. How do I solve both these problems?

Due to friction, a tighter carrier would cause the oring to be pushed back farther when the bolt is at rest. If the vent hole is close to the oring , then it could leak. When you use the proper carrier, the oring fits properly and doesn't get pushed back so it doesn't expose the vent hole and leak. However, low pressure causes the oring not to seal as tight against the bolt stem. This is normally not a problem unless the oring is close to the vent hole. A loose fitting oring on the edge of the vent hole may allow some air to creep by. I think there is some wear in your assembly. probably on your sear. Also, check that your rail bushing is in place. It probably is, because there would be other issues if it was missing.

[athomas]

My new o-rings are on their way! I tinked around with my marker a bit more tonight and I got the velocity adjuster to quit leaking by turning the velocity down.

Hopefully, your velocity is high enough at the lower setting.

[redarmy27]

The carriers aren't supposed to be snug, just not too loose. Its rare that you get orings that are too big on the inside diameter. Usually the small carrier with no lines and no dots will make any oring tight enough. Hopefully the new orings work for you.

While you are waiting, check your sear. Make sure it isn't worn at the tip. That could cause the bolt to sit farther forward, exposing the vent hole a bit causing a consistent leak out the front.

As for the piston assembly, you will have to get a new one of those if you want to run a level 10 bolt on an older classic mag. The older mags worked around 350psi and vented air a bit higher than that for safety. The level 10 bolts often work above 450psi.

Hey thanks for the info. I checked the sear last night and it looks just fine (the previous owner had only used the Mag twice, didn't like it and had it locked up for the next how many years...), almost brand new.

For the piston assembly, I'm not quite sure how old my classic is. Is there a way to tell? And also would I just be able to order the assembly on their site or is there a specific one? Winter is coming so I might either just send it in or order all the parts myself and tink as I get even more acquainted with this lovely marker

Thanks for all the feedback guys; it's right what they say about Mag owners! Great people!

Jake

[TheMedievalMan]

Okay, I think I seriously underestimated just how much this gun likes oil. I opened up the valve and put in a liberal amount of oil inside all of the parts. And that completely solved the leak from the bleed hole. Now its down to the correct carrier size. I am on a carrier that still causes some bolt stick, and I can hear a very faint leak coming from the bolt when I put my ear on it. But I dont know if this is a true leak, or the "sea shell" effect. Im going to test it with some water to see if it bubbles.

Due to friction, a tighter carrier would cause the oring to be pushed back farther when the bolt is at rest. If the vent hole is close to the oring , then it could leak. When you use the proper carrier, the oring fits properly and doesn't get pushed back so it doesn't expose the vent hole and leak. However, low pressure causes the oring not to seal as tight against the bolt stem. This is normally not a problem unless the oring is close to the vent hole. A loose fitting oring on the edge of the vent hole may allow some air to creep by. I think there is some wear in your assembly. probably on your sear. Also, check that your rail bushing is in place. It probably is, because there would be other issues if it was missing.

[athomas]

Okay, I think I seriously underestimated just how much this gun likes oil. I opened up the valve and put in a liberal amount of oil inside all of the parts. And that completely solved the leak from the bleed hole. Now its down to the correct carrier size. I am on a carrier that still causes some bolt stick, and I can hear a very faint leak coming from the bolt when I put my ear on it. But I dont know if this is a true leak, or the "sea shell" effect. Im going to test it with some water to see if it bubbles.

Lubrication is always good, but you should only have enough to wet the orings to allow them to move freely. Excessive oil can mask sticking problems, which will return after the oil blows off. Your mag should function on minimal oil if it is working properly. The act of taking the valve apart, applying the oil, and then putting it back together probably had as much to do with stopping the leak as the oil itself.

The water test is a good one. Its hard to hear a slight leak in a tube. Even nothingness sounds like a hiss in a tube.

[athomas]

For the piston assembly, I'm not quite sure how old my classic is. Is there a way to tell? And also would I just be able to order the assembly on their site or is there a specific one?

Chances are that if it didn't come with a level 10 installed, that it doesn't have a high pressure piston assembly. I don't think you can tell them apart by a glance. There could be a marking on the high pressure ones to differentiate them, but I don't recall ever seeing any difference in the ones I have replaced. The high pressure piston assemblies are the only ones sold now, so if you buy one at the AGD online store, it will be the high pressure version. Get in touch with Tunaman here on AO. He can get you a good deal. He is a dealer, so the price will be good and it will definately be a lot less expensive for shipping.

Always work on a mag yourself if possible. That way you familiarize yourself with its operation and will see how simple they really are. Besides, when you ship it to AGD for repair and tuning, they will fix all problems but it will probably come back with a generic "works with everything" setup that may or may not work with everything.

[TheMedievalMan]

You may be right about that, perhaps the act of moving around the parts fixed something that was loose. I am out of scuba air, so I will take it to the shop and see about getting it tested there. They use boxes of seconds to make tests on guns, and I will see about getting the velocity to the correct speed. So far no leaks, and I think I have the velocity up real high. So if I get it adjusted correctly, and its working fine without leaks, then I have it right.

By the way, what exactly does adding shims do?

Lubrication is always good, but you should only have enough to wet the orings to allow them to move freely. Excessive oil can mask sticking problems, which will return after the oil blows off. Your mag should function on minimal oil if it is working properly. The act of taking the valve apart, applying the oil, and then putting it back together probably had as much to do with stopping the leak as the oil itself.

The water test is a good one. Its hard to hear a slight leak in a tube. Even nothingness sounds like a hiss in a tube.