** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[RockoFTN]

I installed the lvl 10 bolt in my RT. When I gassed up, the on/off valve wouldn't engage the sear assembly causing the trigger to not function. It was firing perfect hours before with the lvl 7. Has anyone ever had this issue? I'm thinking either the bolt is making contact with the sear thereby not letting the on/off valve function, or the on/off valve could be stuck for some reason.

Thanks.

[nak81783]

Level 10 requires more pressure than a Level 7. Turn your velocity up, and try again.

Heck, Ann Arbor? If you can't get it working, bring it to DeWitt, and we'll get it going.


-Nathan

[athomas]

I installed the lvl 10 bolt in my RT. When I gassed up, the on/off valve wouldn't engage the sear assembly causing the trigger to not function. It was firing perfect hours before with the lvl 7. Has anyone ever had this issue? I'm thinking either the bolt is making contact with the sear thereby not letting the on/off valve function, or the on/off valve could be stuck for some reason.

Thanks.

You are getting bolt stick due to the carrier being too tight for your oring. It is preventing the bolt from sitting back far enough to reset the sear. See http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...97#post2828797 for tuning advise.

[RockoFTN]

Level 10 requires more pressure than a Level 7. Turn your velocity up, and try again.

Heck, Ann Arbor? If you can't get it working, bring it to DeWitt, and we'll get it going.


-Nathan

Thanks Nathan,

I had to crank up the regulator 3 complete turns, but it worked, the RT cycled. Do you know the reason why changing the bolt would have such a large effect on the regulator?

[nak81783]

Thanks Nathan,

I had to crank up the regulator 3 complete turns, but it worked, the RT cycled. Do you know the reason why changing the bolt would have such a large effect on the regulator?

The Level 10 has a smaller surface area that the pressure pushes on to start the cycle, so it needs more pressure than a Level 7. It's not until the largest stem diameter makes a nearly complete seal with the powertube tip that the full forward force of the bolt occurs. Here is an animation that should help your understanding.

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/level10real.gif

As such, you will see about a 10% efficiency loss, but the chop protection is worth it.


-Nathan

[athomas]

The Level 10 has a smaller surface area that the pressure pushes on to start the cycle, so it needs more pressure than a Level 7.

Also, if you are using a stiffer bolt spring, it requires more force/pressure to move the bolt forward.

RockoFTN: Go through the level 10 tuning procedure to make sure you are using the largest carrier that does not produce a leak. It is absolutely essential or you will get bolt stick at some point out in the field during a game.

[nak81783]

Also, if you are using a stiffer bolt spring, it requires more force/pressure to move the bolt forward.

True. Forgot to mention that part.

I may have asked this before or read it somewhere, but I have forgotten. Are the spring constants actually different between the springs (red spring "stiffer" than gold spring), or is it just the length that factors in (F=kx, more initial compression within the constant distance between the bolt spring seat and the body spring seat results in more force that the bolt must overcome)?


-Nathan

[athomas]

True. Forgot to mention that part.

I may have asked this before or read it somewhere, but I have forgotten. Are the spring constants actually different between the springs (red spring "stiffer" than gold spring), or is it just the length that factors in (F=kx, more initial compression within the constant distance between the bolt spring seat and the body spring seat results in more force that the bolt must overcome)?


-Nathan

I do know that the silver spring is both stiffer and longer. I'm not sure if the red spring is both longer and stiffer or just longer. I never measured the spring constant to check it.

[RockoFTN]

Also, if you are using a stiffer bolt spring, it requires more force/pressure to move the bolt forward.

RockoFTN: Go through the level 10 tuning procedure to make sure you are using the largest carrier that does not produce a leak. It is absolutely essential or you will get bolt stick at some point out in the field during a game.

athomas: I believe I have the largest of the 4 carriers in it already, as long as the lvl 10 tuning video was correct on the sizing. Thanks for the heads up tho.

[athomas]

athomas: I believe I have the largest of the 4 carriers in it already, as long as the lvl 10 tuning video was correct on the sizing. Thanks for the heads up tho.

What was the size of your largest carrier? How, tight was it? You can gauge the tension by placing it on the tip of the bolt stem. Then, hold the bolt in a vertical position with the bolt stem up and gently tap the face of the bolt on a hard surface. The carrier and oring should fall to the base of the stem. If it doesn't move or if it takes a hard bang to get it to move, then the carrier size is too small.

[magman313]

so I just got an x-valve used and im setting it up im getting bolt stick when its supposed to reset on a ball not fully chambered. I just took it apart and there seems to be a couple shims in it already. bolt has the gold spring on it. it shoots great if I don't rt, so do I need to remove the shims or do I need a longer spring? I don't remember how to tune my lvl 10 its been about 3 or 4 years sense I was active and even messed with my mags or paintball.

[Cyco-Dude]

so I just got an x-valve used and im setting it up im getting bolt stick when its supposed to reset on a ball not fully chambered. I just took it apart and there seems to be a couple shims in it already. bolt has the gold spring on it. it shoots great if I don't rt, so do I need to remove the shims or do I need a longer spring? I don't remember how to tune my lvl 10 its been about 3 or 4 years sense I was active and even messed with my mags or paintball.

thomas' guide will help:

The new kits come with the sizes you have. The old kits used to come with sizes from 0 to 3.5. Most of the time carriers above 1.5 were never needed, so the larger ones were dropped from the kit.

The gold spring will work for all velocities.

If you hold the trigger down and it leaks a bit before sealing, it usually means the bolt stem vent hole is close to the sealing edge of the oring causing it to weep air until the oring sets and tightens up. Remove the shim and you should be fine. Shims shouldn't be used anyway. Shims only change how far the bolt needs to move before it can vent air and reset. Most of the time, even in extreme cases of a breach blockage, the bolt will always move far enough to expose the bolt stem vent hole.

Level 10 tuning guide:

When tuning your level 10, remove all the shims from the powertube before starting. They don't affect the operation but they can cause false leaks which cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. Don't put them back when you are done. You shouldn't ever need them.

For carrier sizing:

Find the carrier size that causes the installed oring to fit freely over the bolt stem. The carrier should sit on the bolt stem without moving if the bolt is held in a vertical position. If you tap the valve on a hard surface, the carrier should be loose enough to allow the bolt to move. If you have to force the carrier onto the bolt stem with any force at all, then it is too tight. Install the bolt and valve into the gun. When aired up there should be no leaking. If it leaks, take the carrier out and replace it with the next smaller size. Always use the same white carrier oring in each carrier that you use. It is the orings that you are adjusting. Try it again. You want to use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

Any time that the gun fires and does not reset or short strokes and does not reset, or just chuffs and does not reset, the problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. Installing shims will not help. Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

For spring adjustment:

You want to use the bolt spring that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to use the gun at 280fps, then your desired lower limit of operation is 260fps. Insert your long bolt spring. Turn the velocity adjuster down before you air up the valve. Then gradually turn up the velocity until the gun will cycle. This is your lower velocity. Measure it. If it is above 265fps, then you will need a shorter spring or you will need to clip the one you have (unless you have red one. They are usually in the correct range). If you clip a spring, only clip half a coil at a time and then try it using the same procedure of starting with a low velocity setting. Make sure you put the cut end of the spring towards the bolt. If you have the short spring installed, and the lower range is 30fps below the desired shooting velocity, I wouldn't worry about using a stiffer spring and would just go with the short bolt spring. If it was much lower than that, I would definitely clip a long spring to get closer to the desired range.

[magman313]

Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

so this is what I believe is the issue. its when the ball does not totally chamber my bolt is hitting it and not resetting

[magman313]

all fixed! I started from the beginning and well it was set up correctly but needed another shim strange enough I now have 4 shims in it and I can get the bolt to reset when it stops on a ball not fully chambered.

[athomas]

all fixed! I started from the beginning and well it was set up correctly but needed another shim strange enough I now have 4 shims in it and I can get the bolt to reset when it stops on a ball not fully chambered.

Shims should only be used if you pull the trigger and the bolt lip moves ahead of the sear tip but does not release any air. This would only happen if something was tight against the bolt face when you fired the gun. Each shim is only 0.01" thick, so any movement at all usually allows the bolt to get past this distance anyway. If any air was released at all from the bolt, then shims will not help your setup. They might mask the problem for a while, but it will come back, usually in the middle of a game at the most inconvenient time.

In your case, if the bolt hit a half chambered ball, then chances are that it moved past the shim distance anyway. You can check the distance setting in your setup by holding a squeegie or dowel against the bolt face. Do this without any shims installed. Pull the trigger and slowly release pressure on the squeegie allowing the bolt to move forward. You should be able to get a good feel for how far the bolt moves before it can vent air and how gentle it is. Since I am comfortable with my setup, I use my finger down through the feedneck. It gives me more direct feedback.

I have never seen a mag need 4 shims in order to reset properly, although since it isn't leaking while at rest, perhaps your setup is out of spec for some reason and it does need the shims. What rail and body are you using?