Freaks not what they claim to be?

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  • slushee
    AO Patch Designer
    • Jan 2001
    • 562

    #1

    Freaks not what they claim to be?

    Alright, if i'm not allowed to post here, could you maby move this post to the Tech forums instead of deleting?

    Anyhow, on to my curiosities...

    I was driving down the road with my coke in my hand and it sort of hit me ....

    1- We all know about Tom Kay's barrel tests .. if it's too tight, it scrapes off all of the powder used to test.. if it's too loose, it leaves the 'zebra stripes' as it bounces back and forth down the barrel before ejection ..

    2- The best match is when it leaves 2 - 1/8" stripes inside the barrel.

    3- The idea of matching the paint to the barrel is a good idea, lets not make this mistake. Being able to have the perfect bore size would make the paint travel more acturatly due to either no compression, nor any bouncing done before leaving the barrel.

    I'm sure at this point your thinking .. okay, where is he going with this :) .. well the 3 items i just described are very logical ... but I believe the manufacturer (in this case, Smart Parts) has not completed the logical steps one should take.

    Okay, we have a 2 part barrel that is screwed together to make one. in the first half, we slip in a sleeve to perfectly match the paint to the inner bore of the barrel (for this theory, let's pretent it's an exact, perfect fit .. 2 - 1/8" strips as it leaves the sleeve) ... BUT, we then have the front half ... the section that IS NOT sleeved .. and therefore, is now not perfectly matched to the paint. The front half is the final stage before the ball leaves for it's intended target and is thus the most important. Any effects would directly effect (or affect .. damn i don't remember the difference) the balls accuracy as it leaves the marker and is then out of any more control by the player/marker. So anyhow, we now have the paintball entering the front half of the barrel. This section has no sleeve to match it to the paint. It does have a dimention, and I am ASSUMING that it is more towards a large bore size. I have not had the time to confirm what the bore size is manufactured to from Smart parts. BUT, it is very logical to say that there is a VERY GOOD chance that the bore size of this front section is now either too big (that's what i am assuming) or too small.

    Okay .. now that we can agree that the paint is no longer matched perfectly to the bore size, let us reiterate the information at the top of this post. If the paint is too small, it will now bounce around a bit decreasing teh accuracy .. and if it's too large, it will now become compressed (leading to problems that i cannot remember from Tom Kaye's barrel testing).

    So, in conclusion, I have to wonder if spending the money for a Freak system is worth it, when you end up shooting yoru paint through a barrel that is 'not really' matched to your paint.

    I would ask that someone from the crowd (after this novel, i doubt too may ppl have actually made it this far!!) to actually take Tom Kaye's barrel test and, after matching the proper sleeve to the paint, find out what the paintball is doing in the front section of the barrel.

    Also testing with more then one type of paint would be benificial ....

    So ... dare I ask for any comments??
    Sig image file size too big... MarkM

    ".. yes ma'am, our DSL does sux .."
  • SSMercury
    Baaaaa....baaaa
    • Jun 2002
    • 212

    #2
    Hmm...not sure if this reply is appropriate. Probably be a better discussion of it in Paintball Talk. Anyways...

    (Never bought a Freak kit)

    It's a two step barrel design. Why not make it have full length inserts, that make the entire 10-12 inches the same diameter. This could be accomplished by having the barrel have a sort of hook on the muzzle end, with the screw in the middle, as I picture it. Now you basically unscrew the muzzle half, insert the 10 inch long .XXX inch bore thing, and then slide the muzzle half back over it, and then screw it in? This rather than have 6" inserts or however long they are.
    Own: stock '94 original Spyder, Used Nelspot 007, Phantom stock class

    "Some of us thought you had gone insane. Verdict still pending on that one."
    -Vegeta, aimed at Tom Kaye

    Mercury Musings to meself:
    If someone takes a paint-gun apart and modifies every scrap of it, does it matter what gun they had in the first place?
    No, it does not matter.
    Simplicity is proven over technological breakthrough.
    Too bad we can't smack sense into everyone. Why, think of how easy learning would be.
    Aiming is a good thing.

    Comment

    • Butterfingers
      PhD in Automagology
      • Jan 2001
      • 2263

      #3
      I think the primary reason why we match barrels is to increase velocity consistency between shots, which plays a great role in accuracy.

      Otherwise I don't think it makes much diffrence.
      Last edited by Butterfingers; 08-15-2002, 10:01 AM.
      Did you hear about the new european weapons contracts? France is going to make the wooden sticks Spain making the little white flags

      Comment

      • nippinout
        FUSP
        • Jan 2002
        • 1231

        #4
        Don't worry

        Don't worry about the front half of a 2-piece barrel.

        The front ends are HUGE! (much larger bore than big bore paint) The front half does no more than quiet the shot and make the barrel look good. :)
        BAM!
        TNS2K2's Viagra Adventure!

        Comment

        • kevdupuis
          KNDE
          • May 2002
          • 1041

          #5
          Lets take this one step further. Short barrel sizers, how efficient are they really? Because if we take the 8-10 inch unported length that is recomended to properly accelerate a paintball , it makes them look, (shall we say) inconsistent. I wonder what the different manufacturers have to say on this?
          Flying the unfriendly skies.

          Comment

          • Spaceman613
            Guinness taste tester
            • Jan 2002
            • 550

            #6
            short effective barrel length isnt that bad. Didnt Tom change his stanse on the 8-10 inches? If you set the gun up for a short dwell, then the short effective length is fine. i use a freak almost exclusively, and I get great consistancy and efficiency. I use it on 2 different cockers, one running at 350-375psi, the other is 225-250psi. The first does yield better efficency from its shorter dwell.

            Short burst of gas for the shorter effective barrel, loner effective barrels (LAPCO) would be beneficial of a longer burst, or at least less detrimental.

            Does all of this make any sense?
            http://www.spaceman613.net

            http://www.bunkerboyz.com for CCM and your pump paintball needs.

            Comment

            • DeFAuLt
              Registered User
              • Jun 2002
              • 95

              #7
              i was thinking of this before and i think that the back half should be, say, 10 inches and it should have a lapco style porting on the front half which would be 2 inches making a perfect effecive length and paint to bore match.

              Comment

              • Goldie D Pimp
                Registered User
                • Dec 2001
                • 326

                #8
                My question is....

                Which have tighter tolerances? The paint or the Freak tubes?

                The freak tubes go down to 3 significant digits, right? Are the tolerances in the paint tight enough to work right with say the .689 spacer?

                I've never taken the time to measure batches of paintballs to see how consistent the paint is.

                I'm just wondering if they should bother making so many different sized bores, or just go with a small, med, large tube???
                Thanks,
                Goldie
                www.vaporworks.net

                Comment

                • Spaceman613
                  Guinness taste tester
                  • Jan 2002
                  • 550

                  #9
                  Well, dont go by the numbers. Machining tolerances wont make them perfect. If they were, they would be a lot more expensive. I look at mine as sizes 1-6, I have used 2-5 regularly. One batch of X paint will be in th size 4, and the next day it could be in the next size larger. Remember paint changes sizes with a lot of variables.

                  As for the 8" launch tube, that will only really work for 2 piece barrels, and not inserts. An insert that long with thin walls would be a pain to manufacture and not bend.

                  I think freaks are great for the money. they work well and do what they are supposed to do. they are modular for different bore sizes, and they have interchangable tips and bases. Perfect if you have an angel and cocker.

                  What they are NOT is precision. a .686 insert will probably not be perfectly .686 in every one. BUT they are great for sizing paint from one batch to the next, and from day to day.

                  As you can tell, i like my freak, and do recommend them to other players, especially FPO players.
                  http://www.spaceman613.net

                  http://www.bunkerboyz.com for CCM and your pump paintball needs.

                  Comment

                  • paintballerpm
                    Registered User
                    • May 2002
                    • 4

                    #10
                    I'm confused

                    I thought the effective lenth of a barrel was 5-6 inches not 8 to 10. Also, I don't understand what your saying about the tip being larger (.700 inches I think). The tip is supposed to be larger and not touch the paint, that is the whole point of a step bore barrel. This same thing goes for DYE barrels. Could you get better than a freak? Sure, if your prepared to spend over a grand in barrels. The freak is an excellent choice for all players. Its many features and low cost make it a good choice. The option of buying new backs is great. Cheaper than buying a whole new set of barrels.
                    ~pete~

                    Captain and proud back player of:
                    Rateof Fire Paintball Team
                    Proud player in the NEPL tournements circut.
                    Proud owner of 2000 angel LCD and 2002 eclipse shocker:)

                    Comment

                    • rudy
                      Registered User
                      • Oct 2001
                      • 439

                      #11
                      actually like they said the general belief is the paint never touches the barrel front. I would like to see some studies to back this up though. could you get better then a freak is the next question. well I think you could, and for alot less then 1000$ I have reason to believe that the freak inserts dont hold thier size very well. I have some inserts that just dont make sense the ball will be hard to get through the .685 and easier to get through the .683 then I go back thinking maybe I wore out some of the shell and it still has a hard time going through the .685. I am not sure if its different batches the inserts are just easily getting distorted with use. tight sgueegees and getting stuck in the barrel. I have seen one insert that was flared at one end from this. I would get the equation system any day if it wasnt so ugly. they should come with ss inserts I think that might help a bit. I dont really care for the freak much but its the only one with enough inserts to fit bigger paint and my .683 nylon balls

                      Comment

                      • irrific
                        Registered User
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 22

                        #12
                        Well first off equation barrels arent ugly you just need to know what looks good together, yes ive seen ugly mother's put together they just need to know what colors go to what, ill be putting up a barrel gallery on the equation website to show people how they should look and we are coming with more designs and getting rid of the old cause i know some designs do look nasty but where changing our looks and where in the mist of redesigning so i would be looking out for the them.

                        equation inserts are stainless steel teflon coated
                        and the inserts run at .683 .685 .687 .689 .691 .693
                        need a bigger size request it, well make any size you want

                        Comment

                        • slushee
                          AO Patch Designer
                          • Jan 2001
                          • 562

                          #13
                          yes I believe Tom Kaye proved that a large bore barrel does not provide an 'air barrier' around the paintball, as the paintball left 'zebra stripes' on the powder inside the barrel meaning that it (the paintball) was bouncing from side to side until it left the barrel ... meaning that 'if' the freak front is larger, it is only bouncing around the paintball before leaving the barrel ...

                          Personally, i would rather buy 2 separate barrels and match them to the paint i usually use ...
                          Sig image file size too big... MarkM

                          ".. yes ma'am, our DSL does sux .."

                          Comment

                          • rudy
                            Registered User
                            • Oct 2001
                            • 439

                            #14
                            yes I believe Tom Kaye proved that a large bore barrel does not provide an 'air barrier' around the paintball, as the paintball left 'zebra stripes' on the powder inside the barrel meaning that it (the paintball) was bouncing from side to side until it left the barrel ... meaning that 'if' the freak front is larger, it is only bouncing around the paintball before leaving the barrel ...
                            see you seem to be drawing the conclusion that the ball bounces around the front of the freak which is a larger diameter. but you cant make that conclusion from the information posted. how do you know the freak back doesnt shoot the ball strait so it never touches the sides of the barrel front

                            Now on to equation. irrific I would assume you work for equation from the content of your post. tell me this how much does it cost to get other sized inserts made? I would be interested int that. also I saw the 14" kit tht dirty bunny recieved and it does look better then the ones I have seen I just might get one. http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=47067 how is that made especailly for the automag? Is that a 3 peice? (tip extender, and back) or a 2 peice (front and back) that barrel is said to be a 14" can I get it in 10" or 12". also can I get the front in stainless steel

                            Comment

                            • irrific
                              Registered User
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 22

                              #15
                              Rudy,
                              yes i work for equation,

                              Now if you want a different bore size insert there isnt no extra coast.
                              next...
                              The barrel (soon to have a name for it) that dirty bunny has is a 2pce and its lenght is 13.5 , but you can also use the Multiple switch parts and make it 3pce barrel all of our parts are universal.

                              2pce barrel sizes for automag: 13.5 and soon a 11.5 incher.

                              other marker types well have 3 different sizes if not 2sizes

                              its mind boggling with all of our designs we do

                              This domain name is available, own it today. Affordable payment options. Fast and professional service.

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