Intimidator Electronics-based shootdown

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  • defiance
    Registered User
    • Jan 2002
    • 4

    #1

    Intimidator Electronics-based shootdown

    I'm not actually a roundtable member, but I figured this would still hold value . I am, as a few of you know, currently in the process of disproving some of the claims stated by the manufacturer of the 'Equalizer' board for the Intimidator. The claims that I am particularly focused on, and the method I plan to use do do so are listed as follows.
    At the heart of several of the following claims is his statement that the stock intimidator board has many hardware flaws. So, for testing purposes, I intend to use a purely stock board. The only hitch is that the stock chip used is a PIC 16c77 chip, which is one time programmable. as such, I plan on removing the 16c77 and replacing it with an 18f442 chip. Basically, the differences between this and the 16c77 are -
    1) it is flash - infinitely (almost) reprogrammable.
    2) it includes an eeprom memory bank, allowing storage of information from one power cycle to the next, without being permanantly written into the flash. (saved settings, basically) This noninclusion of eeprom is the one signifigant hardware flaw that has been universally conceded... I've said it for a while
    3) It generally includes more of any given type of memory.
    According to the datasheets, other than the differences listed, there are no signifigant differences between the two microcontrollers. As such, I feel that the changing of the micro should not adversely affect the validity of these test results. I chose this particular chip because it was pin-for-pin compatible with the 16c77, used flash memory, and was available at digikey (seems they don't stock many tqfp-44 PIC's with flash memory). The eeprom and higher memory capacities were just 'perks'. If there is a flaw in my logic, please point it out!
    Next, I intend to write for this modified board a software package I've taken to calling the 'Free Ware Airgun Software' (heh). It will be completely open source, written 100% in PIC assembly. One important note here is that when I say open source, it is taken as a bad thing because it allows users access to the code for the markers. Fortunately, that is not really much of a concern here, as I will only be doing a few of these boards for testing purposes, and as the software will be written specifically for them, it will serve no purpose to someone without a board or the skills to modify theirs themselves... And if one has the skills and experience to safely remove a TQFP 44 pin chip and replace it with another, they most likely have the skills to write their OWN software, without my help Back to the topic, though, I intend to make it open source so that it will be clearly visible and verifiable that there is no form of software compensation for the hardware 'shortcomings' that are being claimed. Also, I'm somewhat scatterbrained, so it's quite possible that I could miss/forget/etc. something, and this will give anyone who knows PIC asm a chance to 'check my work', if you will
    Finally, the claims I hope to disprove with this experiment (these are all paraphrased from memory, so if I misstate one of them, correct me )

    "The intimidator has shootdown, caused by hardware flaws in the stock board, when fired in long strings in excess of 14bps."

    I plan to disprove this by using software capable of running in full auto at higher rates of fire (I figure 18bps would be a good place to start?) and map out the chrono readings for 50 shot strings. Obviously, there is likely to be some shootdown in these readings, but my hypothesis here is that it will not be overwhelming, and it will primarily be attributable to the air system. To support the second part of that, in the same marker (plug/unplug), I would like to do the same with an equalizer board.

    Progress: I have 3 boards prepped for 'surgery', the chips have been safely removed from all of them. New chips will be here, according to UPS tracking, this afternoon sometime, and I'll get to reinstalling the chips then. I have all the parts for my programming cables here, and these should take very little time to construct. I also have a freeware ISP software package I plan to use for the programming. I have mapped out each microcontroller pin & function, and have a basic structure for my software written.
    Limitations & obstacles: I'm still learning PIC asm (curse bob for not using AVR's, they're definitely superior chips .. Hooray for the e-mag, great choice, AGD! ), but it's not dissimilar at all to 8051 or AVR asm, so it's more or less just converting equivalent instructions. I don't have a computer chrono, so I am hoping to come across a volunteer willing to actually perform this test. I also don't have an eq board... And REALLY don't want to buy one if I don't have to... So, hopefully either the first volunteer would have his own, or there would be another volunteer willing to provide an EQ board. If not, we can at least show that the shootdown in the stock hardware is not what's claimed.
    Anyway, any thoughts, ideas, suggestions? Let me know.
  • Butterfingers
    PhD in Automagology
    • Jan 2001
    • 2263

    #2
    Sounds great!

    Its a great way to kick off the new forum with some in depth analysis.
    Did you hear about the new european weapons contracts? France is going to make the wooden sticks Spain making the little white flags

    Comment

    • 314159
      Registered User
      • Nov 2001
      • 555

      #3
      i have some generic software i have written for the pic, currently to power a board for the autococker, and the m3 frame for a blowback semi. the timing can be adjusted to the 5000th of a second and many other features. pm me if you are intrested in this.

      as far as an incircuit programmer goes, this one works off of the serial port, and requires NO EXTERNAL POWER, it generates the 12-14vdc necessary to program the pic by using a voltage pump that is driven from the serial port.

      Serial port programmer for 8/18/28/40 pin PIC microcontrollers and I2C EEPROMS + ICSP connector and cable


      there are free plans/code, but they sell the link for about 7 bucks, so you might want to just buy it from them.
      As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide

      sometimes I just freaking hate people. which means the next day I will love them for the sake of balance, but right now I will just concentrate on the hating. Hate hate hate. Blaaaarg! ;)

      turborev - with ai like this, if it controlled any more than a paddle, it would kill you and everyone you care about. ;)

      Comment

      • cledford
        Registered User
        • Feb 2001
        • 1386

        #4
        defiance,

        I was the guy who challanged Jim Drew on his Timmy shootdown claims. I posted the original 14bps shot strings. I own a classic Timmy and a computer chrono, which is how the whole debate got started - I had tested the Timmy months ago and new he was wrong. I would be willing to assist with the new test. I would like to see a board that mimics the exact settings of a typical Timmy board (dwell settings, eye), other then extending the full-auto strings to 50 and the ability to start at 14bps and work up. I don't want it to appear that anything was

        Also, as a round table member (and due to the nature of the already established debate) I would suggest that we tread carefully to maximize our credibity.

        -Calvin
        From a poster at PB Nation:

        ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

        MY FEEDBACK

        Comment

        • Butterfingers
          PhD in Automagology
          • Jan 2001
          • 2263

          #5
          I have to speak to Don on the possiblity of reprogramming the e-magnum board to work on the timmy.

          If you don't require the eye logic the e-magnum board as it exists now can be EASILY be jury rigged to fit the intimidator.

          We will truely see if it is actually the power supply. The e-magnum power supply is pretty much vastly superior to the WAS power supply.
          Last edited by Butterfingers; 08-15-2002, 09:31 PM.
          Did you hear about the new european weapons contracts? France is going to make the wooden sticks Spain making the little white flags

          Comment

          • Top Secret
            IPR's E-Maggot
            • Jun 2001
            • 601

            #6
            This could become an important issue due to the fact that WAS may be trying to create that illusion that the old boards cause shootdown at higher bps, sending some fear into the older timmy users that their guns are somehow inferior and NEED this upgrade to stop a shootdown problem that may/may not be there. He says all of his profit will come from existing owners upgrading their boards. If he hypes about the horrible shootdown old Timmies get, it would influence many owners to buy his board. It would be equivalent to if Tom all of a sudden said the AIR valve could cause shootdown at as low as 9bps(when in fact it doesn't) and that we should all upgrade to the retrovalve to cure the woes of shootdown that we never really had. (Yes, I do know the best reason to get a RetroValve, the trigger )

            This board may be an improvement, but he could also be making up the shootdown issue to scare existing Timmy owners into buying his board.
            O FLAGPULL O

            Cincinnati All-Stars

            Comment

            • 314159
              Registered User
              • Nov 2001
              • 555

              #7


              this is the mosfet that i am using to trip the solenoid in the m3 blowback semi frame. it should handle the emag solenoid nicely.
              As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide

              sometimes I just freaking hate people. which means the next day I will love them for the sake of balance, but right now I will just concentrate on the hating. Hate hate hate. Blaaaarg! ;)

              turborev - with ai like this, if it controlled any more than a paddle, it would kill you and everyone you care about. ;)

              Comment

              • cledford
                Registered User
                • Feb 2001
                • 1386

                #8
                Originally posted by Top Secret
                This could become an important issue due to the fact that WAS may be trying to create that illusion that the old boards cause shootdown at higher bps, sending some fear into the older timmy users that their guns are somehow inferior and NEED this upgrade to stop a shootdown problem that may/may not be there. He says all of his profit will come from existing owners upgrading their boards. If he hypes about the horrible shootdown old Timmies get, it would influence many owners to buy his board.
                This is exactly why I challenged him in the first place. After reading his statement in another thread where he indicated that he was supplying the boards to Bob at cost and that all his profit would come from existing Timmy board upgrades I became even more concerned.

                Under our new round table guidelines we can do this - we just need to post the facts. Anyone who disagrees can post their proof to the contrary. That is something that has not occured in threads else where.

                -Calvin
                From a poster at PB Nation:

                ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

                MY FEEDBACK

                Comment

                • defiance
                  Registered User
                  • Jan 2002
                  • 4

                  #9
                  Update: Ok, finally got my parts in last night. I have successfully removed and installed two chips (I did manage to damage one trace, but was able to repair it... And only on the first one. The second one went perfect Not bad for the first time I've ever actually done TQFP-44's ). I've verified continuity on all pins with a meter, and no shorts, so that's good, but I didn't have time to actually build a programmer & test one yet. Should have final word on success/failure of the 'hard part' (the surgery) tonight.

                  Also, I came up with a 'workaround' for the need of an eq board. I did some searching, and came up with a 5v regulator and transistor in the same packaging as the stock ones, but both rated up to 500mA. WAS's claims are that the stock power supply & output circuit are where the problem is. If this is the case, replacing these should make a signifigant difference in velocity after an extended number of shots... I wouldn't call this a definitive answer without collaberation through testing of an actual EQ board, but it should at least shed some light on it.

                  Comment

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