Hey all you thinkers out there, solve THIS mag problem! (Tom?)

[striker]

So I've got quite stumper here (at least for me) regarding mags.

It all starts yesterday, when I got my hypermag in the mail. After installing it, its not shooting, I mean it would shoot once for every 7-9 times I pulled the trigger. Not good. In further examination (and alot of calls to centerflag) we've discovered that the problem is not on the hyperframes part, but the mag's regulator. Huh. Here's how we know: Originally, we thought the selenoid was bad, but after taking it apart, the selenoid pushed back on my finger pretty hard and definately with enough force to knock the sear. That takes care of that.

The problem is: When my XRTP is gassed up, I can't even manually push the selenoid to engage the sear! What?!? I can only manually push in the selenoid when the RT is degassed. Keep in mind that I have a ULT trigger kit in there with a whole 3 shims, and it really should be pretty easy to engage the sear, expecially since I used a intelliframe with no problems for awhile. So my thinking (and centerflags) is that the reg is somehow bad, becuase there's too much force behind the sear when its gassed up, keeping even my finger power from engaging the sear.

To recap, here's the facts:

1.) The ULT and XRTP worked perfect until the hyperframe came

2.) The Hyperframe definately has enough force behind its selenoid to engage the sear.

3.) For some reason, when the marker is gassed up the selenoid can only fire the marker after the selenoid tries 6-10 times. (aka not enough force in the selenoid, but we know that's not the case. So there has to be too much force behind the sear)

4.) I can't even manually push the plunger on the selenoid to engage the sear when its gassed up! (and if I can't do it, theres no way the selenoid can - hence the fact that there's too much force behind the sear)

Things I've tried and the results:

1.) turning the velocity WAY down.
Result? Nothing new

2.) Turning the flatline tank's input way down
Result? Nothing new, but a new puzzle: I turned it down so far to where there wasn't enough pressure to push the sear down. Then I turned it ever so slightly up to about 400 psi until the sear did finally "cock" and the selenoid's plunger went back. But even then I coulden't manually push the selenoid in!

3.) Changed to a 1.5 carrier on the LX
Result: Nothing

I guess the really puzzling this is that the ULT and XRTP was working perfect until with the Intelli, meaning there wasn't any ungodly force behind the sear, and therefore probably isn't now. Perhaps something is getting stuck inside the hyperframe near the sear and selenoid. I'm looking into that now. Any suggestions?

[Rope a Dope]

Try a fresh new battery, if you already done so, buy a new package or maybe a different brand.

Had a guy come into my shop with a sear tripping blow back and had the same issue, every 10 pulls the gun would fire. I told him put in a new battery and he yelled at me saying he just opened a new package of duracells and had the same issue. I got a cheap Ace Hardware battery and slapped it in, the whole time him getting pissed off at me saying he already replaced the battery and he wants a new gun. I finish putting in the battery and rapid fire 50 shots, all firing with one pull of the trigger.

[striker]

Yeah, i've already tried a new battery, and the one it came with only had 1500 shots on the counter. Both give the same results.

[MantisMag]

if it works fine with your intelliframe why would you think it's not the hyperframe causing the problem?

[striker]

Good point. I just edited the end of my post. Thanks

[Lee]

duracells. more amperage. try those.

[ScatterPlot]

I gotta say first that I don't have a solution to your problem. My post is about a tiny pet peeve of mine. It's "solenoid" not "selenoid". You don't need to edit the post or anything, just for future reference.

[Tunaman]

Something wrong with the regulator? What a crock! How about the solenoid doesn't have enough power/lousy specs to fire the marker? Its a poor tolerance issue with a pass the buck solution.

[hitech]

I assume when you say that you can't fire it manually you are using the "pre-fire" hole in front of the field strip screw. It could be that the safety is dragging on the sear. Remove it and see if it fires. If it does, then the safety is the problem. Also, do you still have the intelliframe? If so, you can also replace the hyperframe with it and see if it fires. If not, can you put the valve into another marker? Bottom line is to determine if it is something in the hyperframe that is causing the problem.

[striker]

When I say fire it manually, I mean taking off the grips and trying to push the back end of the solenoid. If I can't push it in and engage the sear, I figure the solenoid can't either.

And about that safety. Working on the problem a bit ago, the safety somehow got stuck when it was somehow pushed (I really don't know how...) in on the opposite side of the LCD. Thats confusing, I know. Meaning the I can practically see inside the Hyper through the "safety off" side of the safety hole. Anyway, the safety is stuck and refuses to come out because of that little ball bearing & spring. I don't want to force it so I figure I'll just send the whole gun into Centerflag and let them deal with it. If you could somehow help me get the safety out, then I would be appreciative! Thanks for your hlep.

[hitech]

Originally posted by striker
And about that safety. Working on the problem a bit ago, the safety somehow got stuck when it was somehow pushed

Okay, it really does sound like it is the safety. You need to get it out. First, remove the hyperframe from the marker. You should then be able to push the safety out. If the spring is caught it’s going to be VERY hard to remove. I just used brute force when it happened to me (put a nasty gouge in the safety hole). Without seeing it I would say it’s the safety. You need to get it out before you can be sure. Maybe a picture would help?

[striker]

Ok. Safety is out, but most of the problem still remains. There is however, a new issue. I've determined that it isn't the mags fault in any way, because I can push up on the sear (through that sear hole on the back of the hyper) and it'll fire just fine. However, most of the time when I push the sear manually, it will double fire, and if I hold it, it'll just go. I know that is basically to be expected, because of the nature of the sear, but what I'm worried about is the double fireing when I only try to fire one shot manually.
See when the hyper is on, most of the time all the original symptomes are there, but tweaking with various things has produced the hyperframe to "double fire" on every trigger pull. And in between the two shots, you can hear air leaking down the barrel. It seems to me like when that happens, the solenoid simply is charged for too long (keeping the on/off pin pushed in too long). Talking to the techs at Centerflag, he told me to change the setting to this:

IS: 08
If: 01
Fn:01

It seems to me like perhaps I should turn down the IS to about 03 or 04 and see if that produces results.

But as I said, only sometimes does the hyper "double fire" most of the time the original symptomes are still there. (ie fire the hyper 6 or 7 times to shoot once).

I have also noticed that at one time in tweaking the 'mag I was able to fire it manually without having the 'mag double fire. I don't know how, but it probably has somethign to do with the ULT's shim amounts (I am currently running 3). I think that is also key to getting the gun to fire properly w/ the hyper.

Now to my concerns with the solenoid. It is very possible that the solenoid is simply a bad solenoid. For one, the solenoid DOES fire (the gun double-fires), but only when the plunger is fully kicked back. You'll notice that there is a little disc in the "back" of the solenoid (the part of the solenoid that is closest to the trigger). Only when that disc is flush with the aluminum frame (all the way back) will the hyper shoot. Most of the time there is a gap between the disc and the hyper's frame (big enough to fold a business card in two and stick it in there). When that disc is in that position (halfway back) the original symptomes are there. Also, when the disc is all the way back, it will fire, but it won't "recock" to that position. Tweaking with just the sear and the hyper, I've noticed that I can push down on the sear (where the on/off would normally push) and even then it woulden't push the plunger all the way in. I also think that this is key to solving my problems.

Any help in any of these areas would be greatly appreciated.

[hitech]

Originally posted by striker
I can push up on the sear (through that sear hole on the back of the hyper) and it'll fire just fine. However, most of the time when I push the sear manually, it will double fire, and if I hold it, it'll just go.

That sounds like a ULT tuning issue. I have NO experience with ULTs and can’t help you there, sorry. It could also be a worn sear, check the sear to be sure it’s okay.

You need to get the marker working in properly in “manual mode” BEFORE you try and make the hyperframe work. If you don’t, determining what is causing the problem becomes much more difficult. Do you have a mechanical grip frame (i.e. the stock one) you can install? If so, install that and get it working flawlessly first. Then install and tune the hyperframe.

Originally posted by striker
Talking to the techs at Centerflag, he told me to change the setting to this:

IS: 08
If: 01
Fn:01

I vehemently disagree with the centerflag techs. They told me something similar. I told them (and anyone else who will listen) that dwell times that low are a BAD idea.

To get it working start with these settings:

15 - 20
Fd - 50
Fn - 20

You can then start turning down 15 (IS) and turning up Fn. 15 and Fn should total AT LEAST 20. Once you settle on settings for 15 and Fn, you can try tuning down Fd. All this turning is ONLY to save battery life. Get a plainview 9.6 volt NiMh battery, recharge it before every day of play and forget all these hassles.

Originally posted by striker
Now to my concerns with the solenoid. Most of the time there is a gap between the disc and the hyper's frame (big enough to fold a business card in two and stick it in there). When that disc is in that position (halfway back) the original symptomes are there. Also, when the disc is all the way back, it will fire, but it won't "recock" to that position…

You need to “tune” the solenoid position as follows:

You want to determine if the sear is engaging fully. To do this, remove the grip panels and the safety (be careful not to loose the spring or the TINY ball bearing). Gas up the marker and fire it a couple of times. See if you can manually move the solenoid plunger away from the sear "leg". You need to have a small gap between the sear leg and the solenoid plunger. If you do have a gap then try and move the sear leg (accessible through the safety hole). It should NOT move. If it does, the pin is not long enough.

If there is no gap, or it is large, loosen the four VERY small set screws in the top of the grip frame (you will have to remove the grip frame to gain access to them) and move the solenoid.

You want to get the smallest gap you can and be sure there actually is a gap.

Good luck. BTW, I’m subscribed to this thread and get an email when anyone posts in it. I’ll try to read anything you respond with.

[striker]

Okay, turns out the double firing issue is was only a matter of input pressure from my flatline tank. I cranked it back up to 850 and now it's nice and snappy.

The techs at Centerflag told me that leaving the dwell times like that were only for testing purposes, and if left there it would cause bolt chipping. I'm going to return the last two setting to default, but a breakthrough came with the 15 setting.

The tech, kinda as an afterthought, told me to change that setting to around 10. We had tested it at 8 before, but he said that sometimes the settings formula got screwed up. So I cranked it up to 10, and lo and behold the gun shot alot more consistently. I can now fire the gun reliably every time UNLESS I'm firing fast. As soon as I get above about 3-4 a second, the solenoid gets stuck again, and 5-10 fires on the hyper and the solenoid will finally engage the sear. However, I can only fire fast if I begin firing slowly, and then slowly start to increase the ROF. The dwell settings are:

15: 12
Fn: 20
Fd: 01

I tried to increase the Fd setting to 50, but the gun would no longer fire consistently and it was back to the original symptomes. I haven't checked the sear, but that could very well be an important factor in this. I'll check tomorrow.

Thanks for the help, it finally seems like I'm getting somewhere.

[hitech]

Originally posted by striker
As soon as I get above about 3-4 a second, the solenoid gets stuck again, and 5-10 fires on the hyper and the solenoid will finally engage the sear.

When you say stuck, do you mean not firing or the sear not returning? If it is not firing, try increasing the 15 setting. 20 is really where you want to be. Anything less that a 20ms dwell time risks sear bolt wear/damage.