Closed Bolt Palmers vs Pnuemag

[matteusz]

I should probably just send a pm to pneumager but I think there are enough people around interested in this stuff that we can get a conversation going. I just got off the phone with Palmers and got some great info from them.

I really like the idea of a gun that works on timing and can withstand the rigors of CO2 while still performing like it should. Granted with a good expansion chamber a mag and a palmers can both do this. Sure the design is totally different (blow forward vs closed bolt timed) but the net effect is the same. Pneumatic actuated trigger with a gun that can keep up.

So I am thinking of getting a palmers blazer to mix things up and try something new. By the same token I am thinking should I bother? On the one hand I get to build the pnuemag from parts and make it custom myself. Plus I can stick with cocker barrels. On the other hand I think I would get a better machine if I let Palmers do the work for me and hey it sounds like their barrels are pretty good. Heck I could even get a freak kit fitted to it if I decided to go that route.

I play mostly rec ball woods ball type games but I love having a good quality gun that I can shoot in any game and come out on top if I play well (based on my game and not the limits of my gun). Sometimes I get the itch and play speedball too though.
Thus we come to my questions:

1. I don't want to run HPA. I've done the reading and the cost is just too much for me despite the advantages. Would I be wasting my time trying to get some good reg combination going on a pneumag project that won't be as seamless as a palmers? Could it be?

2. Anyone have both and care to compare them for me? Action, maintenance, price, performance?

3. Does anyone have a blazer? If so how are the stock barrels? Ever have timing issues?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Mat

[LegumeOfTerror]

my classic mag takes co2 like a champ. i run either a vertically mounted 3.5oz or a 20 on a remote. i never have issues with co2.

[captian pinky]

problem would be shooting quickly with the mag on co2 personally i would look for a cheap used tank

[11 Bravo]

If you dont mind the weight a steel hpa tank is pretty cheap from what I have heard.

[matteusz]

Anyone have a response to my questions? I get it. I know co2 is fine on a mag. Seriously this issue has been discussed. PNUEMAG DIFFERENT. Shooting fast DIFFERENT. I am not having a co2 on a mag issue I am having a CLOSED BOLT CUSTOM GUN VS a PNEUMAG issue. Seriously now anyone own a blazer or a cocker even that can compare for me?

[hs2000]

the only mech I have found to shoot better then a blazer is my RT, ULE'ed, ULT'ed, Automag.

But that's only takes HPA, and if you want to shoot Co2, get a blazer, they're really good, great barrels, no need to time, small and compact, easy to clean, lifetime warranty... I could go on for ever.

I recommend the single trigger over the double, it's feels great, fits in your hand perfectly, and has crazy old school flare.

Edit; don't focus on it being closed bolt, if anything that's a disadvantage, you have to worry about roll outs, thank god palmers' barrels have widgets.

[pendulous]

Blazers and Mags

I should probably just send a pm to pneumager but I think there are enough people around interested in this stuff that we can get a conversation going. I just got off the phone with Palmers and got some great info from them.

I really like the idea of a gun that works on timing and can withstand the rigors of CO2 while still performing like it should. Granted with a good expansion chamber a mag and a palmers can both do this. Sure the design is totally different (blow forward vs closed bolt timed) but the net effect is the same. Pneumatic actuated trigger with a gun that can keep up.

So I am thinking of getting a palmers blazer to mix things up and try something new. By the same token I am thinking should I bother? On the one hand I get to build the pnuemag from parts and make it custom myself. Plus I can stick with cocker barrels. On the other hand I think I would get a better machine if I let Palmers do the work for me and hey it sounds like their barrels are pretty good. Heck I could even get a freak kit fitted to it if I decided to go that route.

I play mostly rec ball woods ball type games but I love having a good quality gun that I can shoot in any game and come out on top if I play well (based on my game and not the limits of my gun). Sometimes I get the itch and play speedball too though.
Thus we come to my questions:

1. I don't want to run HPA. I've done the reading and the cost is just too much for me despite the advantages. Would I be wasting my time trying to get some good reg combination going on a pneumag project that won't be as seamless as a palmers? Could it be?

2. Anyone have both and care to compare them for me? Action, maintenance, price, performance?

3. Does anyone have a blazer? If so how are the stock barrels? Ever have timing issues?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Mat

I have a stock blazer and an eblazer with an E2 board and MQ valve. I love them both. The Eblazer rips, but so does the mechnical Blazer. The Palmer barrels are great. They are a little heavy, but no big deal. I have several mags and they rip too. So, I'm fortunate to have both and play with either depending on my taste for the day. You can't go wrong with either.

Mike

[wjr]

I've got both a blazer and an automag that's about to be pneumagged. I didn't like my blazer so much at first, but it's since grown on me. The stock PPS barrels are really nice, though the unported ones are very loud.

I'll be able to make a better comparison after I get my pneumag completed (sometime this week! I can't wait).

I'll also test her on co2 for ya.

[turbo chicken]

both are very reliable guns ...blazer as you already know is quite a bit more expensive than a mag ... just on price point i'd go with a used mag

Maintence and Ease of use is on the same playing field for the two ... both have great support and are rather easy to fix if you have any issues ...

look at the testimonials on pbreview.com for each they both have awesome ratings... why not try before you buy ??

personally i say mag ... they are just plain cheaper ... if i could afford a blazer i'd still have a mag as my backup ...



The only stopping point i can think of with a mag is cold weather ... i have issues with my mag in temps less than 50* when firing fast as i can ... and no i don't use an anitsiphon or a remote i know i'd probably fix those issues but just haven't gotten around to getting either.

[custar]

I have Blazers, Typhoons, and mags. I have a recently-received pneumag, but I haven't had a change to give it a good test yet. All have advantages and disadvantages. All are built like tanks and rather reliable. The Blazers and typhoon have no trouble with CO2, even at high rates of fire. I can't assess the pneumag on that point yet. The pneumag has significantly softer trigger pull which I think will translate to higher ROF. That's not a big issue for me, though. If I want sheer speed, I'm going with my Viking. All my Mags and Blazers have good accuracy. The Mags have better selection of barrels, but I don't notice a lot of difference in accuracy in spite of this. I think the barrel I like best on my Blazers is a turned down Lapco anyway. All said, it's close to a dead heat.

Now, if you want to run your high speed pneumag on CO2, you should be able to run a female Stabilizer turned almost all the way out to keep liquid CO2 out of your mag. IIRC, a Stabilizer can pass about 850 or better psi.

Prices on mags vary widely and depend on configuration. You can find them from $80.00 used up to $700.00 or more for a nice e-mag. There are a couple of used Blazers on the Palmer's site for $300.00 or $325.00. Add $75.00 for a Stabilizer, and you should be set.

Palmer's Blazer barrels are available from 8" to 12" IIRC. However, since Palmer's is a custom shop, you can order a barrel just about any length you want. Also, Palmer's or other competent machine shops can turn down many barrels to fit a Blazer.

IMHO, one of the biggest differences between the two is Mags are easier to work on. Blazers can be a bit tricky. If you are a tinkerer, Mags can be customized more easily, also.

custar

[matteusz]

I've got both a blazer and an automag that's about to be pneumagged. I didn't like my blazer so much at first, but it's since grown on me. The stock PPS barrels are really nice, though the unported ones are very loud.

I'll be able to make a better comparison after I get my pneumag completed (sometime this week! I can't wait).

I'll also test her on co2 for ya.

Thanks man you rock.

[matteusz]

ah so nice to know there are some people out there with my taste in having lots of guns around and some good advice to boot. So I have several mags. I can't stand not to make people jealous at least once in a blue moon soooo . . . I picked up a classic with a bunch of gear and a brand new x-chamber off a guy working in a store that was selling lots on ebay. Turns out he bought it back in the day and put an autoresponse on it. And what did I pay for the little gem complete with a decent barrel? 55$ for the whole deal including shipping! Ten years out of use. I take three orings out of my kit and replace the on/ of bottom ring and the power tube tip ring. Gas her up and tear into the poor suckers at the next game. Granted it is like thumb wrestling with a gorilla when you first pull the trigger but for a cheap fast mag you can't touch it. I feel bad though so I think I am gonna send the guy a few bucks more.

I digress. Yeah mags easy to tinker on and I could put a palmers stab on and go with a pneumag setup BUT I am not sure that is cheaper.

90$ for the pneukit
50-75$ for stab depending on used/ new
80$-150+ for the gun (since that is what I have paid for all the others 5 mags total) and who is gonna setup a beater to be a pneumag and I need a frame other than a benchy. The list goes on and I am already at a cheap end of 220 ish PLUS the time. If I am paitient I can get a blazer for what 400 with a good barrel and bam I am done (er I have a new format of gun to upgrade and scare the neighbors with). So really it sounds like other than the potential to spend more on the palmers (barrels second stab blah blah blah) They are way different but perform about the same?

I want to hear more on the pneumag operations. It really seems like I would be trying to do what palmers has been doing for years but with a mag. Further thoughts? I am looking forward to hearing test results.
Mat

[Walrus]

$.02

If it helps, I have owned many markers (Line SI Bushmaster; PMI-3; VMX; '97 Autococker; KP-3; Enforcer 2; Spyder Sonix; Monteneel Z-1; PGP 2K; BBT Typhoon; 2k1 SP Impulse; SP MiniMag; another PMI-3; VM-Magnum; Blazer; Pump MiniMag; Thrasher ULE Emag; Cool Camo Micromag, '94 Evolution Minicocker, '95 Evolution Autococker). As you can see I have had experience with Cockers, Mags, and Palmers. I love them all, but it all comes down to what you want and how you want to play. If you want to throw some paint, then I would do the Pneumag with HPA. If you want to use CO2 and you have an all-round playing style, then I would go Blazer or pre-99 Cocker.

I used to use only CO2, but changed when I got my X-valved Mag over a year and a half ago; and I sold off my Impulse and Blazer to buy my first ULE Mag. The Blazer I had I acquired through a trade when I traded of my Typhoon. At times I still wish I had the Blazer, but I am perfectly content with my two Evolution Autocockers and my Emag. The Blazer and Typhoon were functionality like an Autococker, but both the Typhoon and the Blazer felt different to me than an Autococker does.

The Blazer was stock so it was easy on CO2 (had heavy sheridan type springs), and I would rather have had something with a lighter trigger pull. Granted I could have changed out springs and tinkered with it, but I had Mag feaver and there was no turning back for me. It had the stock brass barred with dual spiral porting and I could place shots one on top of another and it had a good ROF. So the only reason I opted to get rid of the Blazer was because of two reasons...it had a heavier trigger pull and I couldn't get used to the slip fit barrel because it would fall out on me. I would had the screw tightened down to what I thought was too much, but I guess a swollen or bigger ball was loaded and it managed to push the barrel out of the breech area. Again, it was probably user mistake, but I just couldn't get used to the slip fit barrel. Between a Cocker and a Blazer, my personal preference is a Cocker. But I still like the compactness and quality of the Blazer. The Blazer without a barrel (just the body) was about the size of my hand or smaller. With a big drop forward it seemed tiny! And as previously stated, Palmers can make almost any size barrel, but they will recommend a 12" as it is the best size for all-round used and accuracy.

Unfortunately I do not have a Pneumag, but I could take an educated guess and say that it shoots faster than a stock mag and doesn't require the electronics of the Emag. However to keep up with the high ROF, I am sure it is suggested to use HPA.

Also, if you are wanting to play when it is cold outside, CO2 just doesn't compare to HPA.

So as you can see it is all based on personal preference and style of play. I would venture to say if you want to shoot fast and don't care about air-supply, then go with a Pnuemag. If you are stuck using CO2, then I would suggest the Blazer or pre-2k Cocker (although a classic Mag with the proper setup will also work). And, if you want a lighter softer trigger than a stock Mag and stock Blazer and still use CO2, then go with an Autococker.

Lastly if you consider price and you are buying new, then a new ULE Mag with ULT and X valve is about the same cost as a new Blazer w/no Stabilizer. If you are buying used, then as you know Mags are all over the price scale but we will say around $300-$350 for basic setup, Blazers will be around $350 for a basic setup, and Cockers are again all over but are below $200 for a basic setup.

Good luck with your hunt, I know it took me a while to finally decide on what I wanted (and at times I am still deciding) but after 15 years of playing I am back to the basics...Mags and Cockers. And like everyone else's advice, try before you buy if you can. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[wjr]

Thread resurection!

I promised an answer... better late then never. I've now done some very extensive testing on pneumags with co2.

Blazer
-Never had any problems what so ever
-Shot super fast, but not walkable (duh)

Pneumag w/ co2
-Unexpected leaks
-hoses would get frosty (I would presume thus shortening their life)
-I completelty destroyed one msv-2 because of it
-Bolt would actually feeze and get stuck
-It was easier to short stroke
-Had troubles firing in long strings

Pneumag w/ air
Holy crud! I didn't know it could do that! It was like an entirely different gun. I really can't explain it. All I know is that with co2, it was kinda impressive. With air, it was amazing.

[matteusz]

I promised an answer... better late then never. I've now done some very extensive testing on pneumags with co2.

Pneumag w/ air
Holy crud! I didn't know it could do that! It was like an entirely different gun. I really can't explain it. All I know is that with co2, it was kinda impressive. With air, it was amazing.

Yeah I had kinda come to the conclusion that if I am gonna shoot anything really fast I might as well do some extensive upgrading and get air and the parts to build a pneumag. I figure that way I can maintain control over the gun's performance and get that super short trigger pull and rate of fire. Besides for the price I can come closer to affording air with a pnuemag by buying parts over time and building to the better valve frame etc instead of all at once for a blazer. Thanks so much for the testing and the thread resurrection. I love having an AO forum to communicate on. You guys rock. THanks so much for the feedback!