G-Force/PTP patent issue?

[Chronobreak]

OK, How many have I screwed up?

Do tell..

ha, you know i love you luke, the RF example just seems to work, i dont recall you doing an pre orders to be honest. But im glad you diddn't screw any up .

i hate to make this a case of one bad apple spoils the bunch but it comes to a point where you have to decide

are we gonna make this a buyer beware situation

or a Here are the rules and regulations regarding pre orders.

[Spider-TW]

I expect Luke lives by pre-orders. It's just really helps to know what you're doing.

I can see how Luke and Rogue would take exception to rabid's comment about pre-orders. By itself it reads like all pre-orders are bad.

I took rabid's comment to apply to start-ups. There's no other way anyone that lives on custom work can do business (like Lukes Customs).

Rogue brings us limited run items. Worst case is he gets to hang on to one or two for a while and suffer the "got any more"s for months. That risk and limitation make those parts that much more valuable.

It's not the same as 'I have an idea for a worldwide paintball revolution' and 'we are taking pre-orders' coming from me.

[luke]

ha, you know i love you luke, the RF example just seems to work, i dont recall you doing an pre orders to be honest. But im glad you diddn't screw any up .

i hate to make this a case of one bad apple spoils the bunch but it comes to a point where you have to decide

are we gonna make this a buyer beware situation

or a Here are the rules and regulations regarding pre orders.

Who's to say the deal has gone bad on these frames? The poor guy has been tried and convicted because a few individuals have stirred the pot against him. (One in particular because of personal feelings.)

I do understand people have invested money here and are concerned about their return. But NOBODY forced anybody to send him money. It would seem that everybody who did send him money, agreed to his terms without question. So, as far as I'm concerned it's a personal problem.

I'm not part of "said" problem, so I don't like being dragged into it inadvertently. Everyone willingly did business with this guy on his terms, I chose not to. Personally I had never heard of him or his company, never seen any feedback on him to give me a clue of what kind of person he was, so I decided to set back and see what happened. The outcome remains to be seen.

The real point I'm trying to make here is that credibility is earned over time not overnight. It took a LONG time before people started buying my stuff. I first had to build a good reputation, it didn't matter what I had to sell or even what it cost. People didn't know me and weren't going to send me money until they felt I could be trusted. So, I've put my time in to build a small reputable (I hope) business, now someone wants to regulate how I operate? Sorry but I take offense to that.

Now, if T.K. decided to regulate how I operate here on HIS forum that would be different. Because it is his to say so, not anybody else's.

In a nut shell you guys took a gamble on an a risky project, now you have to live with it! My instinct tells me you will get what you paid for. Give the guy a chance to prove himself one way or another...

[luke]

I expect Luke lives by pre-orders. It's just really helps to know what you're doing.

Well not exactly, I don't always do them. Most of the time it's just for piece of mind that I'll get my money back for material and supply's. If I can at least do that up front I figure the stuff will eventually sell...

[rabidchihauhau]

I think I said elsewhere in the thread (or maybe it was a different thread) that this discussion was really a metaphor or standin for "another" discussion.

As to who the heck I think I am and why do I think I can control what you can do on the site - FORUM POST, duh.

I may make Tom laugh from time to time, but I certainly don't have any undue influence over what he or the moderators do or don't do here. Several people raised the issue of what can be done about "this kind of thing" and I offered one set of possible rules that would address the issue. Now, please explain to me - why should I/we have to do what you want us to do?

***

I was not trying to indict the business practices or reputation of people here who have done a fine job of producing custom product and keeping their (rather opinionated and vocal) customers happy. Perhaps I should have added to the suggestion that some companies should be 'grandfathered' into a special category based on history and reputation, a 'gold star' club, that others could be moved into as time and circumstances warrant.

This would have an additional benefit to both buyers and sellers, since some sellers would stand out, and other sellers would have an example to both be guided by and to strive for.

BTW, I don't personally equate 'custom order' with 'pre-order'. In my mind, a 'pre-order' is payment up front for a production run, however limited the run may be. A 'custom' order is a one-off - hey, can you build me this? - and necessarily entails some kind of down-payment or deposit. Not a pre-order.

[luke]

I think I said elsewhere in the thread (or maybe it was a different thread) that this discussion was really a metaphor or standin for "another" discussion.

As to who the heck I think I am and why do I think I can control what you can do on the site - FORUM POST, duh.

I may make Tom laugh from time to time, but I certainly don't have any undue influence over what he or the moderators do or don't do here. Several people raised the issue of what can be done about "this kind of thing" and I offered one set of possible rules that would address the issue. Now, please explain to me - why should I/we have to do what you want us to do?

***

I was not trying to indict the business practices or reputation of people here who have done a fine job of producing custom product and keeping their (rather opinionated and vocal) customers happy. Perhaps I should have added to the suggestion that some companies should be 'grandfathered' into a special category based on history and reputation, a 'gold star' club, that others could be moved into as time and circumstances warrant.

This would have an additional benefit to both buyers and sellers, since some sellers would stand out, and other sellers would have an example to both be guided by and to strive for.

BTW, I don't personally equate 'custom order' with 'pre-order'. In my mind, a 'pre-order' is payment up front for a production run, however limited the run may be. A 'custom' order is a one-off - hey, can you build me this? - and necessarily entails some kind of down-payment or deposit. Not a pre-order.

Fair enough.

Edited for clarity>
One small part I disagree with put nothing I should get "pissy" about.. <

[rabidchihauhau]

wasn't getting pissy.

:)

I also forgot to mention the benefit of the gold star club to buyers; its an instant recognition that the seller has earned a high degree of trust and enjoys a solid and on-going positive reputation.

Personally, I still see the main issue with pre-orders (not for custom work) in being the inherent unfairness of a business asking customers to take the risk; if you are in business and don't understand that it works on 'risk', you shouldn't be in business. (There are of course all kinds of exceptions - for instance, the hobbyist who just does it for fun), but in general, when you go to into business you take YOUR money, invest it as you see fit and hope to get it back through your own efforts. Pre-orders make me say 'what the heck do I need you for'? I'd rather find a local machinist and pay him directly to do the job for me - even if it means a few extra dollars spent. That way, I get exactly what I want and am not letting my money be held hostage by someone who obviously doesn't have enough confidence in their own abilities to sell in a competitive market place; and that makes me question their ability to do anything business wise.

[luke]

[QUOTE]

wasn't getting pissy.

No-No I meant I just disagreed with a small part of your previous post, but it was no big deal. I wasn't going to get worked up about it. (Like I did previously)

:)

Personally, I still see the main issue with pre-orders (not for custom work) in being the inherent unfairness of a business asking customers to take the risk; if you are in business and don't understand that it works on 'risk', you shouldn't be in business.

I completely agree with this. The only time I do pre-orders for production runs is when I really don't think the part will sell but a few guys are bugging me to make them. Even then really all I'm looking for is enough pre-orders to cover the cost of materials and supplies.

[rabidchihauhau]

wow, lookie there. :) ies all around...

the only problem with THAT is, without dissension, there's very little to talk about, lol.

[going_home]

Page 5 ?

Wow I didnt think I was going to be able to find this thread.
It was on page 5......

Anyone notice the pneu frames are gone off the G-Force site now ?

http://www.gforcepb.com/securestore/c377956782.2.html

[punkncat]

Well, according to the "word on the street" this initial run is going to be the only one. Supposedly there is word directly from Garf, whatever his name is, that he will not do another, or if he does it is sometime in the unforseeable future.
The preorder is closed as well.

So if the preorder is done and there will be no other run, why keep it up on the website?

At this point I am just curious as to whether anyone is going to get anything. His amended timeframe is only two weeks away, and as of the last time I checked the thread there seemed to be a lot left to be done in that amount of time.
I hope for those involved that it does turn out ok. A lot of good people have money on the line with a dealer who has no track record, and as may be evident by this threads very existance, in my mind questionable ethics. Eh you know the saying "business not personal".

I just cannot see after this timeframe how a profit out of this could be possible. The optimistic release date and underestimation of AO's collective patience were the undoing of this product.

[TnDeathInc]

Edit.......... for flaming, dont do it again you are warned. Please post with some respect here. Thank You.

[punkncat]

I spite of what some people think, my raising questions about certain things is not always just about stirring up drama.

Do I enjoy that as well? Sure, sometimes, but...well I am not going back through all that again.

Sorry that you find me irritating there TN. Not all that I do is simply to piss you or anyone else off.

[TnDeathInc]

dont worry, ill let you shoot it if i get it there gimpy. /hug

[punkncat]

dont worry, ill let you shoot it if i get it there gimpy. /hug

Well, ok then. I feel better already.