G-Force/PTP patent issue?

[Spider-TW]

Pre-orders when done correctly work well.

I know AO (as a group) has provided some very nice and unique parts on pre-order. I think it requires a level of business awareness that is not otherwise required of a start-up company or individual who will always need an easy way to market.

"Due diligence" is hard to meet for most people.

[rabidchihauhau]

when done well - what does that mean?

My contention is that going the pre-order paid deposit route is primarily a dodge for the supplier who is shifting his risk off to customers.

A company that is well run and properly financed would have funding available to start up new product lines. They would not need to shift the risk off to the consumer.

Furthermore - you're not getting anything for participating in the risk. If someone said 'this is not my usual line of business, but I'll float it' and then offered the first few customers a decent discount off the final price for sharing the risk, it would be marginally better, but still not completely right.

I've been involved in numerous new product intros (not from PTP) where the speciality manufacturer saw the potential of a new market, contacted me for market info, was told a good solid price they'd need to sell the product at, ignored that advice, didn't build enough product and the product line died - too pricey, for example. They wanted to shave the risk by only dropping in dollars they thought they could spare - not accepting the fact that in order to make it work they would have to spend more. Instead of ignoring the advice, they should have said 'well, we can't afford that right now'.

[Spider-TW]

How about small fixed quantity runs of about 10 to 20? It's a different concept and it is not really aimed at establishing a company, but that is the sort of thing that gets pre-orders most often on AO, especially out of production items or bodies that are relatively well known.

If you know the costs (because you've done one) and the total quantity, it's much easier to estimate the total run. The smaller the run, the less it needs a corporate business model. The risk is on the customer, but that risk is what you pay for the unique item.

I agree, pre-orders shouldn't be the start of a company. But pre-orders from established business bring unusual values to the market.

That's what I consider "done correctly".

[going_home]

Pre-Order with Deposit

Theres nothing wrong with pre-orders with a non-refundable deposit.
Say of like 50.00, refundable only if the seller cant deliver at least
close to when he said he would.
Paying the total sale price up front does encourage the seller to take his time though.
The new PTP Micromag run is supposed to be set up that way, a 50.00 deposit (if/when it happens). At least that what Tracy posted.

[RogueFactor]

when done well - what does that mean?

I didnt mince words, it means exactly what I said.

Go back and re-read what I wrote. I didnt say 'when done well'.

[MANN]

when done well - what does that mean?

Participate in one of Rogue's preorders and you will understand. Basicly it goes like this

1 prepay
2 a few weeks later get invoice for second half of payment
3 open mailbox and get product out



edit: guess you beat me to the draw.

[rabidchihauhau]

I didnt mince words, it means exactly what I said.

Go back and re-read what I wrote. I didnt say 'when done well'.

Ok - when done 'correctly'. Define 'correctly'.

[rabidchihauhau]

Participate in one of Rogue's preorders and you will understand. Basicly it goes like this

1 prepay
2 a few weeks later get invoice for second half of payment
3 open mailbox and get product out



edit: guess you beat me to the draw.

That doesn't answer the question, but from your description it doesn't seem like that meets the definition of what we've been discussing:

I think there is a difference between 'send me money and I'll start screwing around and see what I can come up with' and 'I'm getting ready to do another run (for an existing product) - how many do I need to build this time?'

This discussion has obviously been (damn old age, can't remember the word right now) a substitute for certain practices by certain companies.

Regardless of the above, there is a difference between "place your pre-orders now - product will be shipped by x" and "let's see how many people are interested; IF this goes forward, we'll take a deposit and then do the run."

[rabidchihauhau]

How about an AO policy on pre-orders?

Something like:

business license exists and is current
full contact information is provided & verifiable
fully refundable deposits (maybe less a small processing fee)
deposit can be no more than 25% of final cost (not including shipping)
time between pre-order and delivery can be no more than 6 months

[luke]

How about an AO policy on pre-orders?

Something like:

business license exists and is current
full contact information is provided & verifiable
fully refundable deposits (maybe less a small processing fee)
deposit can be no more than 25% of final cost (not including shipping)
time between pre-order and delivery can be no more than 6 months

Sorry, but that is the most ridicules thing I've ever seen you post. You're trying to police things you have no true ownership to. This whole thing is becoming borderline pathetic.

Please, explain exactly who you are to me and why you have ANY say in what I or anybody else here does?

[Chronobreak]

im with rabid 100% on this.

too many people have been jerked around by delays and bad pre orders.

i personaly like pbns policy on NO pre orders at all. your allowed to guage interest in a product but you cannot take payments or patial payments for products that are not in your hands.

as others have said partial payment encourages them to finish faster and delive product.

I would like to say the ONE person who has done pre orders justice is Roguefactor who has done an excellent job and delivering on time if not earlier in most cases with superior products and workmanship.

my view on pre orders is the company does not have enough $ to invest in the product to do it otherwise, or is unsure of how their own product will sell.

[MANN]

My question is why do people jump on every band waggon that passes by. I am sorry, but some people need to learn their lessons.

How many of us will buy a marker from someone when they post it as their first post good deal or not. So why is it that when someone post in the dealer section they automaticly think they have feedback.

[punkncat]

My question is why do people jump on every band waggon that passes by. I am sorry, but some people need to learn their lessons.

How many of us will buy a marker from someone when they post it as their first post good deal or not. So why is it that when someone post in the dealer section they automaticly think they have feedback.

Nail meet hammer

[Chronobreak]

My question is why do people jump on every band waggon that passes by. I am sorry, but some people need to learn their lessons.

How many of us will buy a marker from someone when they post it as their first post good deal or not. So why is it that when someone post in the dealer section they automaticly think they have feedback.

it was in PB talk, i and im sure others knew it was a risk

hopefully one that goes unpunished by us.

Im still debating on asking for my money back or trying to holdout til the 28th.

you have my word if by some reason there is another delay i will be asking for a full refund, as well as writing a letter to better business bureu as well.

Im curious as to how many AO ers and others actualy bought one.

20-50-100-200 ?

[luke]

OK, How many have I screwed up?

Do tell..

im with rabid 100% on this.

too many people have been jerked around by delays and bad pre orders.

i personaly like pbns policy on NO pre orders at all. your allowed to guage interest in a product but you cannot take payments or patial payments for products that are not in your hands.

as others have said partial payment encourages them to finish faster and delive product.

I would like to say the ONE person who has done pre orders justice is Roguefactor who has done an excellent job and delivering on time if not earlier in most cases with superior products and workmanship.

my view on pre orders is the company does not have enough $ to invest in the product to do it otherwise, or is unsure of how their own product will sell.