Soon you will be supporting Smart Parts when you buy a Quick-Release feedneck...

[Ruler_Mark]

lol @ epoxy

[punkncat]

for our viewing pleasure

You are going to pull a ban for that.....interesting point of view I guess.
Since most folks have a tendency to replace stock boards anyway, I am not sure myself that buddy isn't over reacting a bit. Even on top of that, the less than $100 for a blackheart doesn't exactly price the marker out of range as compared to some others in class.
If you are playing tourney ball and cannot afford to upgrade to a better board perhaps you shouldn't be there anyway.

[teufelhunden]

yo that guy is pissed

[dstud2000]

You are going to pull a ban for that.....interesting point of view I guess.
Since most folks have a tendency to replace stock boards anyway, I am not sure myself that buddy isn't over reacting a bit. Even on top of that, the less than $100 for a blackheart doesn't exactly price the marker out of range as compared to some others in class.
If you are playing tourney ball and cannot afford to upgrade to a better board perhaps you shouldn't be there anyway.

Thats not exactly his point though, not everyone wants to buy a whole new board when they can have their stock board reflashed with a better program for a better price. Also what he is saying is that a factory team from other companies use their stock boards and win tournaments.....what you buy is the same hardware as them.....not necessarily the same software though.....where as the SP factory teams couldn't use the factory installed board to update their software without changing to an aftermarket board...so unless the SP teams are using that same unupdateable board and winning, the smart parts ads are misleading.

[MANN]

the smart parts ads are misleading.

:spit_take

Just got home to find that I did not get to read a response. Maybe next week.

[ThePixelGuru]

You are going to pull a ban for that.....interesting point of view I guess.
Since most folks have a tendency to replace stock boards anyway, I am not sure myself that buddy isn't over reacting a bit. Even on top of that, the less than $100 for a blackheart doesn't exactly price the marker out of range as compared to some others in class.
If you are playing tourney ball and cannot afford to upgrade to a better board perhaps you shouldn't be there anyway.

Yeah, it's overreaction, but it's funny as hell. Still, he's got a point. Melting epoxy into the port of a board just to force people to buy new ones so they can comply with the rules of even a single paintball league is ridiculous. It's the same damn board, there's no reason to force people to pay extra just to buy a board that you did them the favor of not intentionally crippling. It's what I've been saying about pretty much all Smart Parts markers for years - if you replaced almost every stock part on those markers, you'd have a pretty nice marker. Of course, then why would you buy the stock marker in the first place? Just cut out the damn middleman and buy enough aftermarket parts to make an Ion or a Shocker that actually works. :rofl:

Would you buy a marker from AGD if they FUBARed it and made you buy replacement parts for your brand new 'mag? I sure as hell wouldn't. So why would you buy a marker from a company that intentionally damages their products just to squeeze more cash out of you?

[teufelhunden]

To play devil's advocate (which almost nobody around here ever does, especially with respect to SP) on the board issue:


Making the board un-flashable can be for a few legitimate reasons:

1) You never know who's going to develop what that could potentially damage the gun in some capacity. People out there are talented enough to write software for just about anything they can get their hands on; i.e., XMod. Not that Xmod damaged any mags (far as I know), but if it did, there's reason to not let users flash the stock boards.

2) Warranty simplicity/honesty -- if people were flashing the stock boards on their own, it would complicate warranty work. Maybe the board fried due to faulty homebrew software, but SP could never tell cuz the board fried. Or the software had, for instance, bad dwell coding and it broke the solenoid -- the user realizes the problem, reflashes with stock firmware, sends it back saying "uh wtf guyz". Etc.

3) Liability. Modes/etc. are still not "legal" in PB per the ATSM and most PB insurance policies. I'm not necessarily familiar with the Nerve boards and what they can/can't do, but it seems like they're lacking PSP ramping and debounce, etc. Leaving off the ramping will be a step in precluding them from liability on the stock guns, and not having debounce can go either way.


Can you upgrade the firmware in your car without a new ECU?

[Hilltop Customs]

to play anti-devils advocate.....what happens if rules change? what happens if theres an event where every paintball gun has to be regulated to one pull one shot? Now every single one of those epoxied circuit boards are trash, because there is no way to update their software to limit them to one shot one pull.

It is not limited to that either, any type of rule change could cause every single one of those boards to be garbage.

They did not do this to cover their butts from the liability, they did it to force players to buy a new board, and in turn gain an extra profit. If they were worried about liability then they would also make sure every aftermarket board they endorse is unable to be flashed...and every gun and board they sell would not be updateable.

Your argument for warranty issues is vaild, except I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the warranty info that comes with the marker there is a clause that states any tampering/modifying of the hardware or software voids the warranty.

Would you buy a computer with epoxied in components?

[teufelhunden]

to play anti-devils advocate.....what happens if rules change? what happens if theres an event where every paintball gun has to be regulated to one pull one shot? Now every single one of those epoxied circuit boards are trash, because there is no way to update their software to limit them to one shot one pull.

It is not limited to that either, any type of rule change could cause every single one of those boards to be garbage.

So, any format change will make my TV obsolete (DTV, 2/2009). Should I be knocking down the door of the TV company? Nah, they don't future-proof their products. If tomorrow the government mandates E85 only and my car doesn't run on E85, even though it's a recent model, should the car company be responsible for keeping me running? Nah, they don't future-proof their products. If a piece of software I use no longer supports older versions of Windows, is it their problem that I'm not running Vista? Is it Microsoft's? Nope. Why should it be any different in paintball? If anything, it means paintball should get its act together and come up with a set of rules, like real sports. SP's boards work for where they expect their gun to be used at the time that they programmed them. Now, if they knew a week after release the rules would change, then perhaps it would be prudent to make the guns compatible. But for unforeseen rule changes? For specific rule X at Joe and Jane's PB fest? It's illogical and irrational to expect that. There's a reason the aftermarket exists.

They did not do this to cover their butts from the liability, they did it to force players to buy a new board, and in turn gain an extra profit. If they were worried about liability then they would also make sure every aftermarket board they endorse is unable to be flashed...and every gun and board they sell would not be updateable.

Anybody who changes out the board is the one making the decision to skirt official rules and regs. SP was not the one doing it, so they're less likely to be found liable in court.

Your argument for warranty issues is vaild, except I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the warranty info that comes with the marker there is a clause that states any tampering/modifying of the hardware or software voids the warranty.

Most likely, which supports my warranty point and makes it easier for SP to determine if someone was messing with something -- software goes away if the chips fry.

Would you buy a computer with epoxied in components?

Not me, but plenty of people buy Macs.

[SR_matt]

Not me, but plenty of people buy Macs.

why is it always when people are to cheap to buy a good computer and have to deal with a package of poorly debugged drivers and a box of non compatible hardware that they dis the machine that was made correctly?

and btw i would like you to point out to me which components are epoxied in seeing as after reading through a tech manual i dont see any that are.

now to give reason as to why that wasnt totally off topic, almost all your examples were not logical. seeing as for the tv change over the government is giving coupons for converter boxes, given its 10 bucks less than the converter box but its not a huge price change. if the government tried to do something like making e85 mandatory and not help people convert over at little to no cost to them there would be a huge uprising of the populous

for the mac windows thing, your comparing a $5 airsoft gun (windows) to an H&K pistol (mac)

i understand where you were trying to go but none of your examples are remotely good for this topic, if there would be a "mandate" to switch boards it wouldnt matter, people would just play different circuits seeing as there is no governing body over the sport now.

-matt

[Hilltop Customs]

So, any format change will make my TV obsolete (DTV, 2/2009). Should I be knocking down the door of the TV company? Nah, they don't future-proof their products. If tomorrow the government mandates E85 only and my car doesn't run on E85, even though it's a recent model, should the car company be responsible for keeping me running? Nah, they don't future-proof their products. If a piece of software I use no longer supports older versions of Windows, is it their problem that I'm not running Vista? Is it Microsoft's? Nope. Why should it be any different in paintball? If anything, it means paintball should get its act together and come up with a set of rules, like real sports. SP's boards work for where they expect their gun to be used at the time that they programmed them. Now, if they knew a week after release the rules would change, then perhaps it would be prudent to make the guns compatible. But for unforeseen rule changes? For specific rule X at Joe and Jane's PB fest? It's illogical and irrational to expect that. There's a reason the aftermarket exists.

Actually the tv switch doesnt make analog tvs obsolete to buy, it just makes them obsolete to broadcast to. Analog tvs will work just fine with an adapter, which will basically be free to anyone who owns needs one(government will be paying for the majority of it). The reason they will be obsolete to broadcast to is because there will be people buying digital only sets.

Also how are you comparing a complete change over of a WIDELY used broadcast system to the change on a paintball gun board? The broadcast changeover is only happening ONE TIME....while rules in paintball change every couple years....sometimes quicker than that. Paintball is a sport with many different rules and leagues....and is always changing. Tell me how many times the type of fuels have changed? leaded to unleaded....and maybe something to come in the future.....how many times has the BPS limits changed in the PAST 5 YEARS? You mention future proofing.....smart parts is dooming that board to be replaced....and therefore forcing consumers to buy more products that smart parts makes money either directly or indirectly from.

Are your saying the nerve wasnt marketed to tournament players? There hasnt been an extremely stable set of rules for paintball EVER, its constantly changing(espically in the tournament sceene) in other words YES Smart parts knows the rules could change 6 months after the gun is produced.....just like every other manufacture.....the difference is other manufactures choose not to lock their guns code by taking an extra step in manufacturing to seal the ports and cover the chip. Do you see where im going with this?.....they spend money to make sure you have to purchase another "upgrade" just to keep the gun "usable" when the rules change; which they know will happen in the NEAR future.

Anybody who changes out the board is the one making the decision to skirt official rules and regs. SP was not the one doing it, so they're less likely to be found liable in court.

Ok, that doesnt make any sense since smart parts sells the aftermarket boards that allow you to do just what your claiming(get around stock boards limitation to the rules) So they are not trying to avoid any liability by plugging ports and epoxing(since they are selling "aftermarket" boards which are not plugged)

Most likely, which supports my warranty point and makes it easier for SP to determine if someone was messing with something -- software goes away if the chips fry.

I'll agree it might make it easier to just look at the board and determine if it was tampered with......but even without the epoxy you would still be able to determine if a board was tampered with. And they dont really care about a tiny board that costs $2 to produce....more than likely if you have a problem they should replace it with little questioning. All in all, it costs them more to fill all those boards with epoxy than they would have to give out for replacement of "tampered" with boards...so warranty is not a vaild excuse for epoxy.

Not me, but plenty of people buy Macs.

Why would you possibly try to start this into a mac vs pc argument....
When was the last time you have heard of someone building a Mac? PC's, just like paintball guns are supposed to be customizable.....you dont hear of pc ports being plugged with epoxy. And for macs or pc....how would you like it if the computer came with 6 usb ports....but 4 of them were filled with epoxy?


My point is if they would build the boards without the port, then maybe coating the board with epoxy would be excusable for waterproofing or something. But to choose to build a board and then seal ONLY areas that can be used for updating is just wrong....specifically in a sport that changes its rules as often as paintball.

[Ninjeff]

Ya thats what I thought at first. Then I took it as a compliment. Its not about ROF its about strategy and tactics.

I was just making a really bad pun regarding AGD and the "Lion Logo" used in its logo. You know...lions den...lol


Whew. Im tired.

[ThePixelGuru]

So, any format change will make my TV obsolete (DTV, 2/2009). Should I be knocking down the door of the TV company? Nah, they don't future-proof their products. If tomorrow the government mandates E85 only and my car doesn't run on E85, even though it's a recent model, should the car company be responsible for keeping me running? Nah, they don't future-proof their products. If a piece of software I use no longer supports older versions of Windows, is it their problem that I'm not running Vista? Is it Microsoft's? Nope. Why should it be any different in paintball? If anything, it means paintball should get its act together and come up with a set of rules, like real sports. SP's boards work for where they expect their gun to be used at the time that they programmed them. Now, if they knew a week after release the rules would change, then perhaps it would be prudent to make the guns compatible. But for unforeseen rule changes? For specific rule X at Joe and Jane's PB fest? It's illogical and irrational to expect that. There's a reason the aftermarket exists.

And out of your car, your TV, and your computer, which of those was intentionally crippled by the manufacturer? Oh, right, none of them. Smart Parts had a product that was capable of being upgraded, but then they intentionally damaged it so you had to spend more money to upgrade. That's not the case with your other examples.

Anybody who changes out the board is the one making the decision to skirt official rules and regs. SP was not the one doing it, so they're less likely to be found liable in court.

The same would be true of anyone changing out the software - they changed it, not SP. It's not like you flash your board with dangerous cheater software accidentally.

Most likely, which supports my warranty point and makes it easier for SP to determine if someone was messing with something -- software goes away if the chips fry.

But the same thing could still happen to the Blackheart board. Either a) you make boards that can't be flashed so you always know what software is on them or b) you make boards that people can flash. It makes no sense to be afraid of people flashing their boards and make a board that they can flash.

Not me, but plenty of people buy Macs.

And where's the epoxy on those? I've been a Mac user for decades, and I've replaced or upgraded components in most of my Macs. I haven't, however, run across a single instance of epoxy blocking me from upgrading.

I realize you're just playing devil's advocate here, but your arguments either don't relate accurately to the situation, contradict themselves, or just don't have any truth to them. Play devil's advocate to your own posts and you'll see what I mean.

[SR_matt]

now in the programming in the board considered software or firmware.

if its software i kind of doubt they can really argue (at least with a commuter savvy person) that the software would void a warranty but if it is firmware then ya, no go

-matt

[paint magnet]

And out of your car, your TV, and your computer, which of those was intentionally crippled by the manufacturer? Oh, right, none of them. Smart Parts had a product that was capable of being upgraded, but then they intentionally damaged it so you had to spend more money to upgrade. That's not the case with your other examples.
.

That's not to mention the fact that they used a proprietary battery and lubricant. Shocker batteries went for what, $15 or so?