Soon you will be supporting Smart Parts when you buy a Quick-Release feedneck...

[Coralis]

Its a shame the paintball industry hasnt come together to settle the patent issue the way ford did back in the day.

http://www.bpmlegal.com/wselden.html

[SR_matt]

Honestly I cannot say that I have ever been impressed with Smart Parts with regards to innovation. It seems to me they would rather throw a bunch of technical BS against the wall and hope it sticks long enough to sell to uninformed players and then contradict themselves later to sell more products.

Take for example:

The BOSS paintgun (yet another Nelson clone)

The Magic Box for AutoMags (which was supposed to increase range by 15 yards)

The PVI/Shoebox shocker, which was always advertised and promoted as shooting further and more accurately with a better trajectory due to its closed-bolt design. (I won't even go into the fact that a powerfeed on a closed-bolt gun should raise a red flag, since a closed bolt gun shouldn't have air blowing back into the ball stack). Then, all of a sudden, SP rips off the spool-valve concept from the Matrix (which had loose similarities to the Mag), makes an open-bolt gun which now shoots just as well! Either way, they were lying about the advantages of a closed-bolt design, or lying that the new Shocker shot just as well.

Other BS lawsuits, which included prohibiting Powerlyte from having a window cut in the side of their barrels to view the inserts. I mean how do you patent a non-functional hole in the side of a tube?

I will give Smart Parts credit for the original Max Flo though, one of, if not the only product, that actually did what they said it would. But, in true SP fashion, it was replaced with a model of a completely different design which was then promoted as better.

well i agree with your first position.

and i agree that the hubbub about shooting farther better more accurate for the most part is normaly marketing bs but SP is not alone in this, heck autocockers (and i am an autococker fan boy) has used this marketing thing. frankly i think closed bolt shots differently and personally i like it and it shoots better for me at least.

shoe box shockers were a spooler that is closed bolt (from the best of my recollection of the animations).

many, frankly most companies have taken, borrowed, rippedoff other designs but i think the big thing that has set off most of us has been the way, or at least the perceived way, SP went about it.

the hole in the side of the barrel is more of a design and can be copyrighted, that is totally understandable, at least for the logo cut in. but at the same time showing which insert is in kind of falls into the logical solution so meh what ever.

i agree that the best product sp produced was the original max flows, consistent as bricks, not the fastest recharge but very consistent. personally that is the only product i would think about owning from them at this point and i would buy a used original not a new


ill also add in about the not being what it was advertised to be, from working at a field, during the time the new shocker, nerve and ion were all released i can say 100% that the guns did not preform as they were supposed to. shockers caused hate and discontent all over the place from people working on them all the time. nerves, well the comment i had from a guy that worked in the warehouse and was a tech for the place that owned the field was that basically a laugh and along the lines of that he wouldnt touch it. ions, good idea, bad execution on first release. the first release should have been fixed in beta. a kid that shortly worked at the field had an ion and came out to play, we kind of ragged on him having an SP gun (saying some insult of "smart parts" name twisted) and he responded with "smart parts, smart choice" literally 1 second later the ions pneumatics inside blew out.


when i started getting into paintball and met a guy who is not a good friend i was told "dont buy what you think is cool now, research, save and buy the best you can buy because you will end up buying it later any way and in the long run it will save you money" i have told this to many people after i heard it because it was right. and i will say personally smart parts products fit in the range of "it works but i want higher quality". and before i get the "we have great QC, etc etc" i will say this. a single alloy of AL will anodize and react the same all the time, SP guns had a bad reputation of having parts that were all slightly off and it was because the parts were different grades of AL (according to a tech friend, and from my knowledge of metals this is correct) so the parts come out slightly different shades/colors. while other manufactures would buy al from the same producer in the exact same grade time after time (the example given to me was WDP). i know anodizing is an art form as much as it is a science but i know for a fact it is not hard to get pieces to be very consistent even batch to batch and shouldnt give the variation that was seen on SP products, specifically the impulses were the worst

-matt

[pump]

Think of it this way... There is only so much you can do with a golf club, but there are hundred of patents doing it different. That is why they call it innovation. You can have something first, but if someone makes it better and improves the design further, you can get a patent on that as well.

OTP also went out of business years ago. Our Freak are sleeve and we market them as sleeves. Most of your acceleration is in the first 4-6 inches which is what our sleeve is. The OTP was mainly a ball sizer meant to keep the ball from rolling out. They basically did it differently.

so if would the 2 IPs of freak sleeve and OTP ball sizer overlap in any areas where it would lead to any legal action?

[SR_matt]

so if would the 2 IPs of freak sleeve and OTP ball sizer overlap in any areas where it would lead to any legal action?

probably it would lead to the first side to register the IP retaining the rights

-matt

[ThePixelGuru]

First of all, you cannot say so many sales reps hinting royalty numbers because I am the only one authorized to discuss this in public. None of the other sales reps really post and I am the only one that discusses it online or in public. As far as what I can talk about as far as numbers comes down to the way the non-disclosure is written. And within those bounds are what I post.

No, I remember Billy Gardner getting on PBN a while ago and spouting off about a bunch of stuff. I know you remember, too, because you referenced that incident in several of our previous discussions. I'm not surprised that Smart Parts as a whole would prefer to forget that ever happened, though. He didn't exactly make a lot of friends in that thread.

The R/T was brought to market years after HPA even entered the market. Paintball Mania and Air America were the top 2 systems. I personally had a 114cu 3000psi raptor system back in 1996. I believe the R/T came about 98-99. Heck, by 99, Crossfire and PMI could have even started to make tanks! I remeber I also had a mania screw in system, and you were not able to use them on R/T's because they were a much higher pressure.

Also, the rest of your post is opinion and not fact. You are making opinions based on what you think could have happened, etc. And a patent is a patent.

First, the R/T came out in 1996, not 1998 or 1999. Second, all Automag valves are rated to 3000psi. I'd like to see you find a paintball tank with an output that my 'mag can't handle. Third, you told me that AGD didn't patent HPA because they needed other companies to start making HPA tanks, but now your telling me that other companies made HPA tanks before AGD. That's particularly interesting, because not only were Air America's regulators based on Automag regulators, but the R/T was (if I recall correctly) the first marker to require HPA. As I mentioned earlier, one of the big reasons the R/T was a tough sell is because people were afraid of HPA - if HPA was widely used in the sport before the introduction of the R/T, as you say, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Seal forward technology is NOT a joke. I think the name is personally.. but in a spool valve system, it makes more sense to have an oring on the inside of the breech instead of having it on front of the bolt. A patch for lousy tolerances?? That was not it all, by any means. It was a way to reduce blow back and wear and tear on the bolt. Bolts wear, but having an oring wear instead of the aluminum made more sense, because if the bolt wears on a spool valve elecrtropneumatic gun, you will get leaks. Plain and simple. I do not know why you are blowing it way out of proportion. Now, with the Turbo... Turbo was cool. It was the first gun to push the rules in tournaments. Who did not like it back then when it came out?? There is more to that story as well. But, the cheater boards were a problem, like the KM2 designs boards when they first came out. Also, look at break out mode and ramp today... SPAWNED from cheater boards. Most of the "cheater" elements on electronic boards that were big came from Bob Long, not Smart Parts.

Concerning seal forward technology, my 'mag doesn't have any such thing, but I don't have excessive blowback or bolt wear - in fact, 'mags that predate Smart Parts still don't require a new bolt because the old one hasn't worn down. I'm not blowing this out of proportion, merely stating that seal forward technology is just another Smart Parts "innovation" that doesn't actually do anything, like the Magic Box or air rifling.

Concerning Turbo, no, "pushing the rules" in that sense is not cool. If the rules stipulate pure semi-automatic operation only and you make a board that adds shots, that's cheating. Yes, ramping and break-out modes came about because of cheater boards, because refs couldn't find a good way to stop people from using them. So those sorts of boards are one way Smart Parts changed the sport, but you can bet I'm not thankful for it.

More opinion based on what everyone else says... Ok. the truth.

The luxe was a gun that has been in the R&D process for about 3 years. It has been in developement way before the mini was even thought of. So, it is a moot point. Also, the mini uses a hose while the Luxe has actual milled chambers throught the frame and body. Which is what the patent is for. So, also a moot point since it does NOT involve the mini.

How can you know or say that the Luxe was in development before anyone thought of the Mini? That's a typical Smart Parts claim right there. Beyond that, however, I've read the patent for the gas-through grip frame, and it's pretty broad, broad enough to possibly cover the Mini (surprise surprise). Of course, we'll never know if Smart Parts strongarms Invert over the Mini, because any such move would clearly include a non-disclosure agreement. Can you really blame us for being suspicious of a company whose moves we don't ever get to see after they've been made?

The Garnders are NOT lawyers. They are really good business men without a doubt. And when you bring up the penumatic ram and electro switches, yes... in today's viewpoint it WOULD be ridiculous. But you have to realize that this was years ago. When the very first pump was converted using a 4 way pneumatic switch and ram, everyone at that time went.. WOW, WHY DID I NOT THINK OF THAT?? You are taking things from years ago and trying to put it in today's context which does not work. in 1996, yes.. everyone went "WOW, WHY DID I NOT THINK OF THAT?" I, being one of them.

It seems like you're agreeing with me here - so patenting the use of a pneumatic ram or a microswitch in a paintball marker would be ridiculous? In my opinion, patents are intended to protect innovation, not to block others from using the most obvious solution. Making a semiautomatic is the obvious development, and using a pneumatic ram to recock your pump marker is the obvious method. Likewise, making a faster marker is the obvious development, and a microswitch is the obvious method. I think it's unfortunate that the USPTO seems to think that these obvious developments are worthy of "protection," but it's true that that's the system we're working with here.

I think (and I mean no offense by this) that you consider exploiting the system to be just good business, while I like to think that even big corporations should answer to something other than the dollar. Both approaches have their pros and cons, I'm just trying to find where we disagree. Of course, I have to point out that Smart Parts' business practices are the reason why they need to hire a full-time public representative like yourself - I'm not aware of any such reps for any other company, probably because most other companies don't piss off enough people to need one. It's understandable that businessmen answer to the almighty dollar, but they shouldn't be surprised when people take issue with the fact that they stepped on so many people's toes in order to do it.

[SR_matt]

just want to put out something i just remembered that will add fodder for both sides to chew on. the AA barrel/ tip that is supposed to add accuracy or what ever from spiral porting. ok it shoots well but if it is such a good item then why when you break a ball and get any paint in the porting you need to wash the barrel and all the porting out perfectly before it will work properly again. that AA tips were the only barrel that i saw people having that much issue with breaks. if the barrel was supposed to be such a good item and have such "technology" how could it have such a simple flaw
-matt

[skipdogg]

At least Smart Parts can never patent 'class'. They have no prior art!

[going_home]

Soon you will be supporting Smart Parts when you buy a Quick-Release feedneck...

I use lever clamping feednecks because they are flat out thee best design.
Just buy what you need now and your contributions wont be going to SP.

I guess you guys made him go away (Sean SP) ?
What was all that ? "dont go away mad just go away" lol ?

[punkncat]

I guess you guys made him go away (Sean SP) ?
What was all that ? "dont go away mad just go away" lol ?

No man it's memorial day weekend. Hopefully he, like many of the rest of us, will find himself over a grill burning some meat and enjoying being around friends and family.

Come on over the brats and burgers will be done around 3.

[Smart Parts Sean]

i dont know where the mag is i have that has the write up (it was a good 4 years ago) but i do remember the story. a guy took an automotive solenoid (door lock one IIRC) because a team mate had broken his wrist and couldnt pump the gun (sterling IIRC). the guy mounted it so the noid would pump the gun for him.

ill have to dig later if i have time but i do remember that it was the earliest anyone could find an electronic paintball marker and IIRC it was even early in the semiauto life

That is different. That is using a solenoid to move a pump and the solenoid is NOT pneumatic. So, it is different.

i debate your claim that the seal forward stuff is logical/needed/what ever, 4 of my 5 markers do not have orings on the front of the bolt and i have no blow back on any of them (mag, mech cocker, sniper 2, spyder, and the only one with an oring is my original pgp). on a gun designed with that in mind, which wouldnt take much effort), the tolerance doesnt even need to be very tight, just has to be designed right. i can see why a gun like the pgp would use an oring because of the air paths but 99% of gun designs have air coming forward out of the bolt which is one of the biggest things to reduce blow back (since the air is already going forward its not going to turn around when it can go forward more easily). reduced bolt wear? well i really think it is more likely for you to snap a bolt before you wear it out as long as the body and bolt were finished correctly. heck delrin basically takes even more of the wear issue out since while the delrin can wear it wants to glide along more. the only people i could see that would wear out a bolt to any excessive amount would be those playing every weekend and shooting multiple cases a day, and even then the bolt/body should not wear out until years of use later.

-matt

One thing you are missing from your list is a spool valve marker. You have to realize that the more orings you put on the bolt causes more drag. More drag means you can get drop off more easily. And Blowback is not a huge issue anyways because of advancements in hopper technology, i.e. force feed. You cannot use a delrin bolt on a spool valve. It scratches easily, hence, it will not seal after 1 game on Huntington Beach.

Honestly I cannot say that I have ever been impressed with Smart Parts with regards to innovation. It seems to me they would rather throw a bunch of technical BS against the wall and hope it sticks long enough to sell to uninformed players and then contradict themselves later to sell more products.

Take for example:

The BOSS paintgun (yet another Nelson clone)

The Magic Box for AutoMags (which was supposed to increase range by 15 yards)

The PVI/Shoebox shocker, which was always advertised and promoted as shooting further and more accurately with a better trajectory due to its closed-bolt design. (I won't even go into the fact that a powerfeed on a closed-bolt gun should raise a red flag, since a closed bolt gun shouldn't have air blowing back into the ball stack). Then, all of a sudden, SP rips off the spool-valve concept from the Matrix (which had loose similarities to the Mag), makes an open-bolt gun which now shoots just as well! Either way, they were lying about the advantages of a closed-bolt design, or lying that the new Shocker shot just as well.

Other BS lawsuits, which included prohibiting Powerlyte from having a window cut in the side of their barrels to view the inserts. I mean how do you patent a non-functional hole in the side of a tube?

I will give Smart Parts credit for the original Max Flo though, one of, if not the only product, that actually did what they said it would. But, in true SP fashion, it was replaced with a model of a completely different design which was then promoted as better.

Every Pump was a nelson clone, so I fail to see your point. Also, it was the first thing they designed. And the black box... Has anyone ever done a video or a test to disprove it? No. Do I believe in the Magic Box?? Nope. I was a cocker guy, not a big fan of Mags anyways.. lol. Also, as far as the closed bolt VS open bolt debate on range. You have to realize that back in 1996, that is what everyone believed. It was not Smart Parts creating this hype. The Hype was ALREADY THERE! They were just using what the market was already saying. There were also powerfeed cockers back in the day. Can you say F/X Cocker?? Yes. I will agree somethings Smart Parts did WAS marketing hype, but not all of it.

Also, if a design was completely ripped off, there would have been an issue with DYE. Since by the time the Shocker SFT came out, DYE bought the patent from GEN-E. (Hence, Dye never really engineered a damn thing. How come they dont get flamed on?). We have an agreement with DYE anyways. Spool Valve type guns will always be similar. That is inherent. Also, we made the ION. DYE Basically knocked off the way an ION works and made the PMR. So, what is your point?

Also, powerlyte. I am unfamiliar with an issue with a window. I know they had a barrel with inserts, so that may have been the issue.

[SR_matt]

the issue was about electro guns, not electro pneumatic. also the patent (IIRC) said nothing about using pneumatics to recock the marker just that it used an microswitch

i really dont get how "you cant use a delrin bolt on a spool valve" its not liek you have to have the entire bolt assembly out of delrin, you can sleeve it or have an extra piece that attaches (there are already an insane number of pieces on the spool valve assembly its not like one more would add much higher % of issues)

if you want to talk about getting sand in a marker, most markers would get messed up from sand, heck a substantial amount of fire arms would get messed up from sand like ooo i dont know m16/ar-15. in fact the only gun i know for a fact would deal with sand perfectly fine would be an ak-47

i think the argument of drag as to why you need to put an oring on the front is pointless since the marker can cycle much faster than it will ever shoot in with paint, and why would you want to put another oring on to cause more drag if there is an issue of drag?

-matt

[Smart Parts Sean]

No man it's memorial day weekend. Hopefully he, like many of the rest of us, will find himself over a grill burning some meat and enjoying being around friends and family.

Come on over the brats and burgers will be done around 3.

Bought a new house about 4 months ago. Today will be cleaning day. First weekend I have been home in a few months.

skipdogg At least Smart Parts can never patent 'class'. They have no prior art!

Skipdogg, if you have nothing pertinent to add, then don't add anything. Trolls annoy me. And this has been a very mature discussion so far.

SR_matt just want to put out something i just remembered that will add fodder for both sides to chew on. the AA barrel/ tip that is supposed to add accuracy or what ever from spiral porting. ok it shoots well but if it is such a good item then why when you break a ball and get any paint in the porting you need to wash the barrel and all the porting out perfectly before it will work properly again. that AA tips were the only barrel that i saw people having that much issue with breaks. if the barrel was supposed to be such a good item and have such "technology" how could it have such a simple flaw
-matt

Any barrel with porting is like that. Except for barrels with really small porting like the J&J. I have never had issues with my AA tips breaking paint. Heck, my SP1 has never broken a ball and it had a few skids shot through it.

well i agree with your first position.

and i agree that the hubbub about shooting farther better more accurate for the most part is normaly marketing bs but SP is not alone in this, heck autocockers (and i am an autococker fan boy) has used this marketing thing. frankly i think closed bolt shots differently and personally i like it and it shoots better for me at least.

shoe box shockers were a spooler that is closed bolt (from the best of my recollection of the animations).

many, frankly most companies have taken, borrowed, rippedoff other designs but i think the big thing that has set off most of us has been the way, or at least the perceived way, SP went about it.

the hole in the side of the barrel is more of a design and can be copyrighted, that is totally understandable, at least for the logo cut in. but at the same time showing which insert is in kind of falls into the logical solution so meh what ever.

i agree that the best product sp produced was the original max flows, consistent as bricks, not the fastest recharge but very consistent. personally that is the only product i would think about owning from them at this point and i would buy a used original not a new


ill also add in about the not being what it was advertised to be, from working at a field, during the time the new shocker, nerve and ion were all released i can say 100% that the guns did not preform as they were supposed to. shockers caused hate and discontent all over the place from people working on them all the time. nerves, well the comment i had from a guy that worked in the warehouse and was a tech for the place that owned the field was that basically a laugh and along the lines of that he wouldnt touch it. ions, good idea, bad execution on first release. the first release should have been fixed in beta. a kid that shortly worked at the field had an ion and came out to play, we kind of ragged on him having an SP gun (saying some insult of "smart parts" name twisted) and he responded with "smart parts, smart choice" literally 1 second later the ions pneumatics inside blew out.


when i started getting into paintball and met a guy who is not a good friend i was told "dont buy what you think is cool now, research, save and buy the best you can buy because you will end up buying it later any way and in the long run it will save you money" i have told this to many people after i heard it because it was right. and i will say personally smart parts products fit in the range of "it works but i want higher quality". and before i get the "we have great QC, etc etc" i will say this. a single alloy of AL will anodize and react the same all the time, SP guns had a bad reputation of having parts that were all slightly off and it was because the parts were different grades of AL (according to a tech friend, and from my knowledge of metals this is correct) so the parts come out slightly different shades/colors. while other manufactures would buy al from the same producer in the exact same grade time after time (the example given to me was WDP). i know anodizing is an art form as much as it is a science but i know for a fact it is not hard to get pieces to be very consistent even batch to batch and shouldnt give the variation that was seen on SP products, specifically the impulses were the worst

-matt

Max flow has one of the best recharge rates of any regs on the market. I am sad they went away, but that was due to the market wanting a single ratio reg as opposed to the dual ratio reg.

Aluminum, yes. The SFT did have a different alloy. We learned a lot from the SFT and the ION. If you look at the guns today, we have improved them a lot. Since we make them in house, we can make changes on the fly. Adam and Billy listen to us now and we at Smart Parts (The people who work for Billy and Adam) have a lot to day about changes in our guns. They both listen a lot. i have found a few issues here and there in the past. Or I come accross something on a forum. If it is a manufacturing issue, I take it to Billy. And changes are made very very quickly. QC is much better today by far. I will admit that the QC a while back was bad. Did we have issues??? YES! Wihtout a doubt. But I belive that Smart Parts is also a different company today then when the ION came out.

No, I remember Billy Gardner getting on PBN a while ago and spouting off about a bunch of stuff. I know you remember, too, because you referenced that incident in several of our previous discussions. I'm not surprised that Smart Parts as a whole would prefer to forget that ever happened, though. He didn't exactly make a lot of friends in that thread.

Billy is banned from posting on any forum ever again by me. If he comes across something, he brings it to my attention and I take care of it. The problem with Billy posting is that he is Dyslexic. It takes awhile for him to post. He also posts about things he think is general knowledge, but a lot of stuff he did post about had references that were not pertinent to the discussion on that "epic" thread.

First, the R/T came out in 1996, not 1998 or 1999. Second, all Automag valves are rated to 3000psi. I'd like to see you find a paintball tank with an output that my 'mag can't handle. Third, you told me that AGD didn't patent HPA because they needed other companies to start making HPA tanks, but now your telling me that other companies made HPA tanks before AGD. That's particularly interesting, because not only were Air America's regulators based on Automag regulators, but the R/T was (if I recall correctly) the first marker to require HPA. As I mentioned earlier, one of the big reasons the R/T was a tough sell is because people were afraid of HPA - if HPA was widely used in the sport before the introduction of the R/T, as you say, this wouldn't have been an issue.

1996.. I finally went to look it up. I am sorry if I did not post correctly. It is not the issue that the RT cannot handle Higher pressures. It just makes it be reactive more easily and the also wears down the sear much faster at higher pressures. AGD did not make Compressed Air systems until the Flatline system. Other companies made them. In 1996, yes... it was a tough sell. The market was scared in 1996 of HPA. And it did take awhile for the market to change and the R/T was the first that needed HPA as well.
Concerning seal forward technology, my 'mag doesn't have any such thing, but I don't have excessive blowback or bolt wear - in fact, 'mags that predate Smart Parts still don't require a new bolt because the old one hasn't worn down. I'm not blowing this out of proportion, merely stating that seal forward technology is just another Smart Parts "innovation" that doesn't actually do anything, like the Magic Box or air rifling.

Concerning Turbo, no, "pushing the rules" in that sense is not cool. If the rules stipulate pure semi-automatic operation only and you make a board that adds shots, that's cheating. Yes, ramping and break-out modes came about because of cheater boards, because refs couldn't find a good way to stop people from using them. So those sorts of boards are one way Smart Parts changed the sport, but you can bet I'm not thankful for it.

Paintball tournament play has always been about pushing the rules. That is how change is made for the better. The Magic Box was designed because back in the day, people DID think that closed bolt shot further. That is true. Back then, people DID think low pressure guns shot better. That was trying ot make the Automag a lower pressure gun. Which it did it's purpose. All the marketing did back then was reguritate what the masses were already saying.

I use lever clamping feednecks because they are flat out thee best design.
Just buy what you need now and your contributions wont be going to SP.

I guess you guys made him go away (Sean SP) ?
What was all that ? "dont go away mad just go away" lol ?

If you are going to troll, at least impress me. I have seen everything... and you just make me wonder where our society is headed. AND, I have been posting on my days off as well.

It seems like you're agreeing with me here - so patenting the use of a pneumatic ram or a microswitch in a paintball marker would be ridiculous? In my opinion, patents are intended to protect innovation, not to block others from using the most obvious solution. Making a semiautomatic is the obvious development, and using a pneumatic ram to recock your pump marker is the obvious method. Likewise, making a faster marker is the obvious development, and a microswitch is the obvious method. I think it's unfortunate that the USPTO seems to think that these obvious developments are worthy of "protection," but it's true that that's the system we're working with here.

I think (and I mean no offense by this) that you consider exploiting the system to be just good business, while I like to think that even big corporations should answer to something other than the dollar. Both approaches have their pros and cons, I'm just trying to find where we disagree. Of course, I have to point out that Smart Parts' business practices are the reason why they need to hire a full-time public representative like yourself - I'm not aware of any such reps for any other company, probably because most other companies don't piss off enough people to need one. It's understandable that businessmen answer to the almighty dollar, but they shouldn't be surprised when people take issue with the fact that they stepped on so many people's toes in order to do it.

If you make a semi automatic gun that works differently than anything out there, then yes. You can patent it. We were the first to make an electro. It is not just a micro-switch, but how it all operates. Big corporations will ALWAYS answer to the dollar. That is what American is built on. It is called capitalism. Look at Dye. They use all Buna orings. Why???? Any engineer would laugh. But it is because they want to sell oring kits all day. But, the difference here is that Smart Parts is a family run business. We may be a large corporation, but day to day business is family. And I am not a full-time PR. Matter of fact, i post because i want to. i do not get paid for any of it. I dropped out of college for paintball back in 1996. I have made it my business to learn as much as I can abou the industry since then. I am certified on almost every paintball gun manufactured from 1996-2004. Now I am in sales at Smart Parts. I am here defending Smart Parts because there has never been anyone to do so ever really besides YDNA. There has never been a public voice to speak with the consumer from Smart Parts as well. And I am filling this voice because I feel it is needed and i do so with the blessing of the company as well. Billy does read everything as well and we speak daily on my posts as well. This all helps me learn more as well. And there is a lot of mis-information out there as well.

[Smart Parts Sean]

the issue was about electro guns, not electro pneumatic. also the patent (IIRC) said nothing about using pneumatics to recock the marker just that it used an microswitch

i really dont get how "you cant use a delrin bolt on a spool valve" its not liek you have to have the entire bolt assembly out of delrin, you can sleeve it or have an extra piece that attaches (there are already an insane number of pieces on the spool valve assembly its not like one more would add much higher % of issues)

if you want to talk about getting sand in a marker, most markers would get messed up from sand, heck a substantial amount of fire arms would get messed up from sand like ooo i dont know m16/ar-15. in fact the only gun i know for a fact would deal with sand perfectly fine would be an ak-47

i think the argument of drag as to why you need to put an oring on the front is pointless since the marker can cycle much faster than it will ever shoot in with paint, and why would you want to put another oring on to cause more drag if there is an issue of drag?

-matt

Yes, most markers would get messed up by sand or debris. But an electropneumatic spool valve is very touchy. you cannot really use anythig that is soft. We used to make the firing cylinder from delin. We changed it to Aluminum because of dirst scratching the surface. You get 1 small scratch, and an oring does not seal up. Have you ever owned an electro-pneumatic spool valve? or do you know how to tech them??

[SR_matt]

personally i have never owned one, i have had team mates and a lot of friends that owned them and from seeing them have to work on them and the issues they have had i will never own one. i want the ability to rip the gun apart wipe it down toss it back together and go. no issues with having to lube other than dump some oil in, shoot a few times and its good. i really feel that anything mechanical or electronic that is so temperamental that one scratch/bump/etc will cause damage that will affect the performance is worthless. if i have a computer that because the way it was designed in a way that if i drop it 2 feet the HD gets damaged to the point i cannot retrieve any data then the HD/computer is a POS. if i have a car that i get in a fender bender the car has to get towed to a shop because the way it was designed that small of damage renders the engine useless then that car is not worth even getting in.

from what i have seen with my friends having issues 95% of the issues on those markers are either due to lube or orings, with the majority being lube issues, i will say this was with the early resurgence of the spoolers so i expect they have gotten better but im turned off of them, plus i also just dont like the feel, dye, sp, what ever just dont like the feel (kind of ploopy)

there are ways around these issues, look at the m 16, it was marketed at a gun that didnt have to be cleaned and was perfect. well after guns stopped working and they issued cleaning kits they were not as bad except they could still freeze up and dont take dirt/dust well at all. while the AK-47s can be rusted shut, kicked open, loaded and fired. while yes the design is slightly different it uses the same type of system to return the bolt. yet the m16 is no where near as durable as an ak.

well you say any barrel with porting that size will shoot bad, i dont mean that you just have to swab them i mean the players would have to clean out every single porting hole to get it shooting fine. i can break a ball in my dye barrels, swab it out and it shoots fine.

-matt

[ThePixelGuru]

Billy is banned from posting on any forum ever again by me. If he comes across something, he brings it to my attention and I take care of it. The problem with Billy posting is that he is Dyslexic. It takes awhile for him to post. He also posts about things he think is general knowledge, but a lot of stuff he did post about had references that were not pertinent to the discussion on that "epic" thread.

Yes, I recall you mentioning that, but he still said what he said. Dyslexia isn't an excuse for the kinds of attacks he made on people or the kind of misinformation that he spread.

1996.. I finally went to look it up. I am sorry if I did not post correctly. It is not the issue that the RT cannot handle Higher pressures. It just makes it be reactive more easily and the also wears down the sear much faster at higher pressures. AGD did not make Compressed Air systems until the Flatline system. Other companies made them. In 1996, yes... it was a tough sell. The market was scared in 1996 of HPA. And it did take awhile for the market to change and the R/T was the first that needed HPA as well.

You're talking out your butt again. I've never heard of such high input pressures wearing down the sear - actually, the sear's made of carbide steel, I'd like to see a bolt eat through that. In fact, many people here routinely run their R/T 'mags with a 1200psi input. You're not going to convince anyone that there's an input pressure that's "too high" for the R/T to handle. Maybe you didn't want it to bounce and didn't know how to tune the on/off properly, but that's not a problem with the R/T. Bottom line, though, is that AGD saw the future of the sport and declined to patent HPA systems in paintball; AGD could have patented HPA systems, licensed to a few select companies for a tiny or even nonexistent fee at first to get them accepted and then made other companies pay large royalties when they wanted to make their own HPA systems. That would have been the Smart Parts method, but AGD sees and cares about the future of the sport. That's why AGD didn't patent HPA, that's why Smart Parts patented the microswitch, and that's why I support AGD and not Smart Parts: because I would rather see my money go to a company that actively advances the sport instead of stifling its development.

Paintball tournament play has always been about pushing the rules. That is how change is made for the better. The Magic Box was designed because back in the day, people DID think that closed bolt shot further. That is true. Back then, people DID think low pressure guns shot better. That was trying ot make the Automag a lower pressure gun. Which it did it's purpose. All the marketing did back then was reguritate what the masses were already saying.

As I said, the only thing that came out of the Turbo boards were more cheater boards - are you really going to make the case that cheater boards are good for the sport? Concerning the Magic Box, yes, you can sell useless junk to people who don't know what they're buying. Respectable companies like AGD don't do that - they try the idea, and if it doesn't work they release the test results so people can see the hype for themselves. Take rifling, for example. The Smart Parts method is to put some spiral porting on a barrel and make unsubstantiated claims that it a) actually spins the ball and b) that spin actually provides some benefit. The AGD method is to create a scientific study in which they spin a barrel at speeds up to 30000rpm to get both the shell and fill up to speed and figure out that lateral spin a) doesn't have any effect at lower rpms and b) actually causes the ball to curve and reduces accuracy at higher rpms. Then they release these results so people can see for themselves. Check out Tom's Tech Tips and the Deep Blue forum here, and you'll see that data. You can see the same thing with the Magic Box - rather than have AGD make a "low pressure" 'mag, Mr. Kaye decided to use emperical data to prove that low pressure is a complete myth and doesn't do anything. Maybe it's better business for a company to just make the product that does nothing and sell it, but that's not the company I'll be supporting. Funny, with all these engineers that you say Smart Parts employs, I'd think you could actually release some data so people could discover what your products really do, or at least test some of these things so you're not just filling the marketplace with useless products. Don't claim this is all in the past, either - I've recently seen Smart Parts making claims that the SP-8 shoots farther, et cetera.

If you make a semi automatic gun that works differently than anything out there, then yes. You can patent it. We were the first to make an electro. It is not just a micro-switch, but how it all operates. Big corporations will ALWAYS answer to the dollar. That is what American is built on. It is called capitalism. Look at Dye. They use all Buna orings. Why???? Any engineer would laugh. But it is because they want to sell oring kits all day. But, the difference here is that Smart Parts is a family run business. We may be a large corporation, but day to day business is family. And I am not a full-time PR. Matter of fact, i post because i want to. i do not get paid for any of it. I dropped out of college for paintball back in 1996. I have made it my business to learn as much as I can abou the industry since then. I am certified on almost every paintball gun manufactured from 1996-2004. Now I am in sales at Smart Parts. I am here defending Smart Parts because there has never been anyone to do so ever really besides YDNA. There has never been a public voice to speak with the consumer from Smart Parts as well. And I am filling this voice because I feel it is needed and i do so with the blessing of the company as well. Billy does read everything as well and we speak daily on my posts as well. This all helps me learn more as well. And there is a lot of mis-information out there as well.

We're not talking about Dye, and I don't own any of their markers, either. But yes, you could say that companies sometimes produce low-quality equipment just so they can be sure you'll need to keep buying it when it breaks. In fact, I recall that was one of the things people were going on and on about when the Ion came out - "why bother maintaining your marker when you can just buy a new one every season?" It's amusing to me that someone from Smart Parts would point the finger at Dye as a company that produces replaceable, throwaway products. I guess I'm one of the few that looks at the actual lifetime of a product before buying it.

Anyway, you could easily make the case that Smart Parts has the better business model - look at how Smart Parts has fared compared to AGD. But when people come along who actually bother to put the time in to understand the claims these companies make and actually read and pay attention to the patents they file and the business practices they employ, it shouldn't come as any surprise that Smart Parts comes under some heavy fire for the crap they've pulled. That's why I support AGD, and that's why I don't support Smart Parts - because the honesty and ethics of a company actually mean something to me. You've proved you can sell to the masses with these tactics, but it's going to be a lot harder for you to pull the wool over the eyes of those who are actually paying attention.