Open discussion for unrealistic pro-classic replacements?

[aqua_scummm]

So now that the pro-classic is "out of stock", sadly, what would you like to see AGD create to replace it?

The discussion likely won't result in anything, but what the hell, it's the internet, and we can discuss it


I'd like to see them clear out the stainless steel classic valves near their cost, and start making them out of aluminum, which would be cheaper material, less tool-time, and still pretty darn reliable. It may not be the amazing lifetime material of the current classic valves, but the X-Valves don't seem to have any issues.

That paired with a simple rail, the single trigger gripframe, and maybe even an even cheaper to mill ULE style body, I think, would cut a lot of market share out of Kingmann and Tippmann's grasp on the mechanical area.


I think it'd be awesome if they sold a gripframe that had mounting points for things. Like pneu-mag ready. But since that may or may not be patented, just say "for things to be mounted inside your gripframe". I duno, I suck at the legality thing, but you get the idea





Any other ideas?

[going_home]

Stock What Sells

Thats already being done . Its called an RT Pro or a Tac One . I think they are stocking what sells and the Classics were slow movers .

[aqua_scummm]

Thats already being done . Its called an RT Pro or a Tac One . I think they are stocking what sells and the Classics were slow movers .

Not at all Not everyone wants to spend that much on a valve, the point of the aluminum valves I mentioned is to make them cheaper for those who don't need the RT, not make mags even less affordable.

To get a good market, AGD's going to need to start getting fresh players, and it's harder to do that with a $500 marker than a $200 marker.

[marked74]

To get a good market, AGD's going to need to start getting fresh players, and it's harder to do that with a $500 marker than a $200 marker.

Especially when the $200 marker is an electro and can boast some ludicrous bps rate. Seems that's what the kids want these days...

[chafnerjr]

Especially when the $200 marker is an electro and can boast some ludicrous bps rate. Seems that's what the kids want these days...

No kidding huh! I still remember my first tourny when we used a spyder, a pro-lite, and a 68 carbine to win against two original angels, and a shocker!

Oddly enough we got our butts whooped on the woods course, and then lost the next round on the speedball course, but man those were good times... quite some time ago tough.

[paintball72]

i agree with aqua a cheap marker (in price not quality, use the ideas aqua had) in this age of people only staying in the sport 2-3 years would be a good way to get more buyers.
just my .02

[questionful]

How much did classic valves cost when they were new? I don't think there is much different in RT valves to make them more expensive than classic valves. So while I think an aluminum classic valve is a great idea, I don't think it would be much more affordable than the RT option. What I think AGD should do is keep a great quality valve (maybe even an X-valve) and make the rest of the marker cheapened down versions of mag parts.

I don't know much about manufacturing parts, but here are some ideas.

Rail: I think the rail should be integrated into either the body or frame. Probably the frame. The sear pin could be press fit.

Frame: I think a double trigger CF frame would sell well. I don't know how expensive that material is, but it looks cheaper than anything aluminum.

Body: I think the main difficulty in the body is the washer. I was thinking the body could be a stainless or aluminum insert held in a CF body. Or plastic, or any other cheap material that could take a little damage. The insert would be the barrel threads, breach, feedneck threads, some sort of detent, framescrew threads, and the washer. So it would just be about 2" long. The body material would have to be able to take the bolt's friction though. Hm. Well just an idea.

So basically it would be a plastic (or similar material) gun, as SP did with the ones that came out a few months ago, whatever they're called. I think this could cost less than $300.

PS
Whoa I just found this!

http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=96&products_id=955

cool!

[ThePixelGuru]

Yeah, that'd all be nice... too bad AGD won't do it. As long as they stay in business, though, I'm okay with that.

[the mag guy]

let's brain storm

Everybody here has some really good points. I haven't read up on AGD's current market strategy, but it really needs to change. They are targeting a niche group only. They need to diversify to be able to compete.

Their biggest problem back in the day besides price was their reputation. They have always made great quality guns, but bad publicity due to word of mouth. Think about it, the internet was nothing back then. When I did my research to purchase my first "nice" gun I chose the cocker over the mag because of professional opinions and player preferences around the fields. Go to any autococker thread, their arrogance is amazing.

Years later when I purchased my first mag I realized what I was missing out on. Basically everyone here thinks that mags are great, trust me they are. The problem is you can still go to a field today an you'll still hear "mags suck" with no reason or purpose.

With this in mind they cannot keep selling the same product at the same high price, it just wont work. I think AGD has always had the mindset of "See our gun, this is what we have to offer" when they should be focusing on what people want.

One really good way AGD can cut costs is improve their supply chain and vertical integration. What i mean by that is how much of the process they own from raw materials until it rolls out for sale. The more of this process they own, the cheaper it is for them to produce the gun therefore dropping total costs.

I really think AGD is going to have to end up making a cheaper gun, show everybody how good they still are and how well they perform. Heck it might have to be a radical different design from the mag. They really need something that can compete with spyders and tippmans but still romp on an ION. I am not in any way saying to get rid of the mag, I'm just saying you need a diverse selection available if you want to successfully compete. I dont know if any of y'all have been to Walmart, Academy, Gander Mtn, or any other sporting good's section, but all you see is low end electro spyders, tippys and their knock offs.

My suggestions:

Though looked down upon by us high class mag owners, AGD needs to cater to the masses to survive. Cater to the younger audience, I don't mind. I'd rather see AGD produce a low end electical ION knock off than not be around at all. I am a loyal customer and I always will be. I'd like to see the mag eventually evolve as well.
As for mag improvements or places to cut cost... Do what WGP did, have a butt load of accessories. Why was the Slug body removed from the market? bring it back and CC the crud out of it. I really liked the body and rail as one piece idea, combine that with the aluminum valve, make a composite double finger trigger and I think the costs would be able to be dropped drastically.
The one thing I would like to improve on the mag is the stock trigger pull. I mean c'mon, who really likes it? It was the main reason I converted to a pneu mag. Maybe have an aluminum powerfeed body. I love my vert feed ULE, but I also like being able to look all the way down the top my compact little mag, so people might find it easier to aim.

[EclipseClassic]

Hate to say it but ya'll are beating a dead horse. The topic of how AGD should go about marketing and creating new products is extremely over discussed. AGD isn't going to launch a massive marketing campaign and build a low cost, low quality marker. I doubt they have the money to do so. It's a dwendling company, everybody knows it. They have a niche market and they are running lean and that is fine. I have no complaints as long as they sell parts kits and keep the website updated. They have downsized in order to survive in a extremely competitive and somewhat monoplistic market. Paintball isn't what it used to be unfortunately. There is will always be pure AGD fans, so stick to your classic and if you want something else, buy it.

[cyrus-the-virus]

...an aluminum classic valve would cost about the same as a X-valve, doing what you just mentioned you have just created an RT-pro without the RT :rofl: it would cost the same amount too.

The only real way AGD could "bounce back" is to Make an e-pneu mag like logics. But that would put it in the price range of your avrage DM or EGO which are "better" than the old fashioned automag..... Even with advertising it woulden't go anywhere.

Until SP crashes and burns AGD will be stuck making high end mechanicel markers.

[aqua_scummm]

...an aluminum classic valve would cost about the same as a X-valve, doing what you just mentioned you have just created an RT-pro without the RT :rofl: it would cost the same amount too.

you gotta think of the CO2 users too though, which is why I'd say stick with the classic style

[JesseB]

Not gonna happen. TK is too busy looking at the stars to develop a new strategy to revolutionize the sport any more than he has or to revamp AGD.

Personaly I would like to see some AGD gear coming out like clothes, masks, hopper shells, bodys for markers, cheap older style mag stuff (PF bodys, simple rails maybe aluminum classic valve) a pump mag, maybe a plastic bodied mag for the low end, open source gun kits.

[paint magnet]

Not gonna happen. TK is too busy looking at the stars to develop a new strategy to revolutionize the sport any more than he has or to revamp AGD.

Considering Tom has done more for the sport of paintball than anyone else I can think of to only have others profit off his inventions, I can't blame him for being fed up with it, and neither should you.

Personaly I would like to see some AGD gear coming out like clothes, masks, hopper shells, bodys for markers, cheap older style mag stuff (PF bodys, simple rails maybe aluminum classic valve) a pump mag, maybe a plastic bodied mag for the low end, open source gun kits.

AGD has been manufacturing "cheap" PF bodies and simple (AM/MM) rails since they began production of the AutoMag. There hasn't been a huge market for non-vert feed markers for the last several years. I don't think you realize the expense that goes into making a body out of stainless steel held to AutoMag tolerances--if it were that simple then other companies would have done it. Besides, PF bodies and rails are readily available on the forums and with current market trends, I doubt many people are willing to pay out for brand new valves, rails, etc. And why make a plastic-bodies Mag? Reliability is one of the Mag's main selling points.

As for "low-end, open-source gun kits," most Mags I've seen sell for $120 or less, and still work as good as new. It's hard to sell new guns when your old ones are still on the market and working at less than half the price.

[JesseB]

Considering Tom has done more for the sport of paintball than anyone else I can think of to only have others profit off his inventions, I can't blame him for being fed up with it, and neither should you.



AGD has been manufacturing "cheap" PF bodies and simple (AM/MM) rails since they began production of the AutoMag. There hasn't been a huge market for non-vert feed markers for the last several years. I don't think you realize the expense that goes into making a body out of stainless steel held to AutoMag tolerances--if it were that simple then other companies would have done it. Besides, PF bodies and rails are readily available on the forums and with current market trends, I doubt many people are willing to pay out for brand new valves, rails, etc. And why make a plastic-bodies Mag? Reliability is one of the Mag's main selling points.

As for "low-end, open-source gun kits," most Mags I've seen sell for $120 or less, and still work as good as new. It's hard to sell new guns when your old ones are still on the market and working at less than half the price.

Tom has done more for the community than anyone but none of his peers give him the respect that he deserves... Major marker manufacturers should be begging to collaborate with him not serving him with c&d orders. Did I ever say I blamed him? no. Just stating he has other interests he is involved in where he feels he is doing better work than paintball.


should edit my post I guess I didn't mean low end open source guns I meant like pneu ready frames and maybe valves with different specs, regs rams and other stuff for different applications.

Plastic bodies for the low end would be a good Idea though it would reduce manufacturing costs and weight plus you have color options and styling options. you could just sleeve the inside of the body and incorporate a rail/foregrip into it and voila all in one mag just add valve and barrel and you are ready to rock. I'd rather see kids rocking those than Ions.

Cheap bodies? like 40-50 dollars cheap? noooo like 100-150 dollars cheap.... ( I don't know exact store prices so don't stress the point) I dont see why a no rise automag body would be so taxing to produce that it cost's that much. I've seen drilling bits, reamers, plungers, pony rods and all kinds of other precision machine work mass produced and honestly they are more painstaking than paintball parts and they don't fetch nearly the premium that gun parts do. Automag bodies would be cake to produce once you had the process locked down and some solid labor.


And honestly from what you said I think you hit the nail on the head. "Besides, PF bodies and rails are readily available on the forums and with current market trends, I doubt many people are willing to pay out for brand new valves, rails, etc." AO is probably effectively killing the company of AGD. Sucking new marker, parts, and accesories sales away from AGD and into the BST forums or other dealers who have started manufacturing third party junk and charging hundreds of dollars for a body and rail combo... Companies that don't generate revenue don't do very well.

Personally I have never bought a new mag from AGD and I have owned 10 different mags that I have bought and pieced together or traded for. That's just the nature of the beast though they make a quality product that out lasts paintball careers and attention spans so they are readily available...

And I don't think I will ever buy a new gun from AGD honestly... I would prefer buying used just because I don't feel the guns are worth the premium price that they are asking for them especially with the newest generation of paint flingers being superior in most aspects I look for in guns for a cheaper price. (compare DP g3 to automag RT price, weight, bps, features, consistency, stock barrel and efficency and anyone but a diehard mag'r will admit the Dangerous Power G3 wins.) Mags will be hear as long as AO is around. but if the community falters the Mag will be done.