Open discussion for unrealistic pro-classic replacements?

[sffudapparel]

but if the community falters the Mag will be done.

Hopefully it'll never happen. If it starts to, AO party at my house!

[ThePixelGuru]

Everybody here has some really good points. I haven't read up on AGD's current market strategy, but it really needs to change. They are targeting a niche group only. They need to diversify to be able to compete.

....

With this in mind they cannot keep selling the same product at the same high price, it just wont work. I think AGD has always had the mindset of "See our gun, this is what we have to offer" when they should be focusing on what people want.

AGD used to be a lot bigger than it is now, and AGD did listen to what everyone wanted in order to develop new products. The R/T is the result of that, and people ended up being afraid of HPA and thinking that the R/T chopped because they didn't have fast enough hoppers. The problem with the paintball market is that the consumer is fickle, and often doesn't even know what he wants.

One really good way AGD can cut costs is improve their supply chain and vertical integration. What i mean by that is how much of the process they own from raw materials until it rolls out for sale. The more of this process they own, the cheaper it is for them to produce the gun therefore dropping total costs.

I really think AGD is going to have to end up making a cheaper gun, show everybody how good they still are and how well they perform. Heck it might have to be a radical different design from the mag. They really need something that can compete with spyders and tippmans but still romp on an ION. I am not in any way saying to get rid of the mag, I'm just saying you need a diverse selection available if you want to successfully compete. I dont know if any of y'all have been to Walmart, Academy, Gander Mtn, or any other sporting good's section, but all you see is low end electro spyders, tippys and their knock offs.

Nope. You seem to think that getting bigger is the best plan, but it's really not. AGD was big, and downsizing was a smart business move. They're not going to start buying up factories, especially since they just moved to a residential address. Before you say that was a bad idea, consider how many similar companies folded, and that AGD survived that rough patch by scaling down their operations.

My suggestions:

Though looked down upon by us high class mag owners, AGD needs to cater to the masses to survive. Cater to the younger audience, I don't mind. I'd rather see AGD produce a low end electical ION knock off than not be around at all. I am a loyal customer and I always will be. I'd like to see the mag eventually evolve as well.
As for mag improvements or places to cut cost... Do what WGP did, have a butt load of accessories. Why was the Slug body removed from the market? bring it back and CC the crud out of it. I really liked the body and rail as one piece idea, combine that with the aluminum valve, make a composite double finger trigger and I think the costs would be able to be dropped drastically.
The one thing I would like to improve on the mag is the stock trigger pull. I mean c'mon, who really likes it? It was the main reason I converted to a pneu mag. Maybe have an aluminum powerfeed body. I love my vert feed ULE, but I also like being able to look all the way down the top my compact little mag, so people might find it easier to aim.

AGD won't produce an electro because of what Smart Parts has done to that section of the market. As for following WGP's example, well, WGP just closed their doors and sold off their inventory on eBay. Not the path I'd follow. As for the stock trigger pull, you can already fix that with the ULT. Concerning CNCing integrated rails and bodies, they're not going to lay down the R+D and production money for something that already exists through other companies.

AGD is a niche company, and they're making the smart moves to survive. I'd rather see them stay small and still be able to buy replacement parts for my 'mag than watch them make some big, bold business move and fold like so many other paintball companies.

And I don't think I will ever buy a new gun from AGD honestly... I would prefer buying used just because I don't feel the guns are worth the premium price that they are asking for them especially with the newest generation of paint flingers being superior in most aspects I look for in guns for a cheaper price. (compare DP g3 to automag RT price, weight, bps, features, consistency, stock barrel and efficency and anyone but a diehard mag'r will admit the Dangerous Power G3 wins.) Mags will be hear as long as AO is around. but if the community falters the Mag will be done.

That's missing the point of what AGD does. They don't produce cheap, fast, plastic electros, they produce high-end, reliable durable mechs. Would you really buy a plastic 'mag? I doubt many (if any) on AO would, and the ION crowd is just going to keep shooting the latest SP flavor of the month and would never give the 'mag a chance. I shoot Automags because they're not cheap fast paint-flingers. If that's what I was looking for, I wouldn't be here.

AGD should just keep on keepin' on, that's what they've been doing and they're still here, still one of the oldest and best paintball companies. I could care less that they don't make a new edition of the 'mag every year with some crap milling and lame body kit. I shoot AGD's markers because I like what they do, I don't feel that they need to change, and, above all, because quality always shoots straight.

[paint magnet]

should edit my post I guess I didn't mean low end open source guns I meant like pneu ready frames and maybe valves with different specs, regs rams and other stuff for different applications.

Why valves with different specs? Part of the beauty of the Mag is that everything is backwards compatible.

Plastic bodies for the low end would be a good Idea though it would reduce manufacturing costs and weight plus you have color options and styling options. you could just sleeve the inside of the body and incorporate a rail/foregrip into it and voila all in one mag just add valve and barrel and you are ready to rock. I'd rather see kids rocking those than Ions.

I still don't see the point of plastic bodies. The Mag body is already practically a "sleeve," and putting a plastic shell around it would add weight and increase manufacturing costs. Would it really be easier to incorporate a foregrip into the body, or install the one screw it takes to attach a foregrip?

Cheap bodies? like 40-50 dollars cheap? noooo like 100-150 dollars cheap.... ( I don't know exact store prices so don't stress the point) I dont see why a no rise automag body would be so taxing to produce that it cost's that much. I've seen drilling bits, reamers, plungers, pony rods and all kinds of other precision machine work mass produced and honestly they are more painstaking than paintball parts and they don't fetch nearly the premium that gun parts do. Automag bodies would be cake to produce once you had the process locked down and some solid labor.

Most of the parts you're talking about are also sold on a much larger scale. Take a Ruger 10/22 bolt, for instance. Much more labor intensive to machine than say, an AutoMag body, but when half of America owns a 10/22, the cost goes waaaaay down. I haven't been keeping up with prices on the forums that much, but it wasn't uncommon to see SS bodies go for $20-30.

(compare DP g3 to automag RT price, weight, bps, features, consistency, stock barrel and efficency and anyone but a diehard mag'r will admit the Dangerous Power G3 wins.) Mags will be hear as long as AO is around. but if the community falters the Mag will be done.

I have shot a G3. When it's been around for 20 years and all the parts are interchangeable, I will consider buying one and concede that it's better than the Mag.

[JesseB]

Why valves with different specs? Part of the beauty of the Mag is that everything is backwards compatible.

For an open source gun not for an Automag, something that is smaller lighter will fit in a smaller shell for airsoft to paintball mods, something that you can do something new and fresh with. read the title of the thread again it says unrealistic... I just thought it would be a cool idea to have more options when you are retrofitting stuff of doing a ground up build

I still don't see the point of plastic bodies. The Mag body is already practically a "sleeve," and putting a plastic shell around it would add weight and increase manufacturing costs. Would it really be easier to incorporate a foregrip into the body, or install the one screw it takes to attach a foregrip?

plastic would let you do so much cool stuff and an aluminum sleeve inside would reinforce it and give you something to thread the feed tube, detents, and barrel into. once again the thread says unrealistic... why spend so much time tearing apart a post?

Most of the parts you're talking about are also sold on a much larger scale. Take a Ruger 10/22 bolt, for instance. Much more labor intensive to machine than say, an AutoMag body, but when half of America owns a 10/22, the cost goes waaaaay down. I haven't been keeping up with prices on the forums that much, but it wasn't uncommon to see SS bodies go for $20-30.

I have a Ruger and I can honestly say nothing on that gun is as well put together as a mag. They are great guns don't get me wrong but seriously there is a lot more time and effort put into just the welding and grinding on a mag than the whole milling of that ruger receiver hell mine has tool marks on it underneath the wood, probably to cut costs... It's pretty obvious you don't know what you are talking about at this point. Ruger = cheap and readily available. there is no comparison to be made...

Most of the parts I'm talking about are manufactured by the thousand or so per month and are made of high quality material in really big expensive machines that suck a lot of power by skilled operators who demand top dollar similar to AGD Quality starts at the beginning . The rinky dink parts you are referring to are out sourced to the lowest bidder who is spitting them out and has such crappy tolerances that I've had to replace the bolt in my .22 2 times since I bought it in 2000. Funny how my Browning Sporting clays gun has alot more recoil and I shoot it alot more but it never breaks....

I have shot a G3. When it's been around for 20 years and all the parts are interchangeable, I will consider buying one and concede that it's better than the Mag.

see that is a narrow minded fan boy perspective and while it's fine and acceptable in this environment it's just not a logical way to make a decision in the real world. The G3 is definitely a better buy than a new mag. The resale may not be the same percentage. But at least it will shoot almost a case of paint off a 68/4k fill, lighter, faster, blah blah blah.... I'm not trying to sell guns or change anyones mind just my opinion....

And remember the thread says unrealistic... be a little more open minded you jerks.

[punkncat]

To be honest, and no offence intended to the above poster, but to say that any marker is "better" than a mag we really have to decide what we are comparing.
Are we all in agreement that ROF makes one marker "better"? I am not, and I am sure many others are not as well.
Is weight what makes it better? Considering the ounces in difference between a well thought out Mag and even the lightest of any other make....throw on a tank, a hopper, and paint and the differences are negligable at best.
Are features what makes it better? I guess that is according to who is using it and for what. There are many people involved in paintball who never use anything more feature packed than a clone or tippy available at Dick's or Wally World. To them features mean nothing and have no importance at all. They constitute the majority of players, so who are these "feature packed" markers catering to? Not the core players.
If we are talking about durability and ease of maintanence I do not think anyone could disagree that Mags win hands down FAR above any other marker made. There simply isn't enough to break or replace.
The ONLY shortcoming to a mag IMO is the efficiency issue. That alone does not constitute on its own merit anything else being "better" when considered at its basic ability to do what every other paint marker does. Put paintballs downfield.

All these bells, whistles, features, lightness, etc. in todays marker, that incidentaly you will not be able to find parts for in five years, do not by any means make them the pinnicle of design. Throw one of those markers in a bucket of water and see what happens. Go try to find parts for many of the older electros....
Do the same with a Mag.
When you can't use the others, which one is "better" now?

Now I don't want you to be confused into thinking that I think that the Mag is the only marker out there, or that some fanboi attitude has blinded me into thinking it is the only marker I need for all situations...but I can tell you this. As was stated above, in 20 years (assuming that the same "common" air source is available) I go and gas up any of the markers I currently own I know where my money will be on which one will actually work, or more specifically will be easily be repaired to.

[JesseB]

To be honest, and no offence intended to the above poster, but to say that any marker is "better" than a mag we really have to decide what we are comparing.
Are we all in agreement that ROF makes one marker "better"? I am not, and I am sure many others are not as well.
Is weight what makes it better? Considering the ounces in difference between a well thought out Mag and even the lightest of any other make....throw on a tank, a hopper, and paint and the differences are negligable at best.
Are features what makes it better? I guess that is according to who is using it and for what. There are many people involved in paintball who never use anything more feature packed than a clone or tippy available at Dick's or Wally World. To them features mean nothing and have no importance at all. They constitute the majority of players, so who are these "feature packed" markers catering to? Not the core players.
If we are talking about durability and ease of maintanence I do not think anyone could disagree that Mags win hands down FAR above any other marker made. There simply isn't enough to break or replace.
The ONLY shortcoming to a mag IMO is the efficiency issue. That alone does not constitute on its own merit anything else being "better" when considered at its basic ability to do what every other paint marker does. Put paintballs downfield.

All these bells, whistles, features, lightness, etc. in todays marker, that incidentaly you will not be able to find parts for in five years, do not by any means make them the pinnicle of design. Throw one of those markers in a bucket of water and see what happens. Go try to find parts for many of the older electros....
Do the same with a Mag.
When you can't use the others, which one is "better" now?

Now I don't want you to be confused into thinking that I think that the Mag is the only marker out there, or that some fanboi attitude has blinded me into thinking it is the only marker I need for all situations...but I can tell you this. As was stated above, in 20 years (assuming that the same "common" air source is available) I go and gas up any of the markers I currently own I know where my money will be on which one will actually work, or more specifically will be easily be repaired to.

like i said my opinion not trying to force it on anyone or downplay mags I love them and use them all the time just tellin it how i see it so I'm absolutely not offended.

[paint magnet]

[QUOTE=JesseB]

plastic would let you do so much cool stuff and an aluminum sleeve inside would reinforce it and give you something to thread the feed tube, detents, and barrel into. once again the thread says unrealistic... why spend so much time tearing apart a post?

What I'm trying to say is that if you have a sleeve strong enough to hold the gun together, then the plastic is purely for looks. Mag bodies cannot get any smaller, and you wouldn't save any weight by adding a plastic shell. Why spend so much time on a post? Well, why reply in the first place?

I have a Ruger and I can honestly say nothing on that gun is as well put together as a mag. They are great guns don't get me wrong but seriously there is a lot more time and effort put into just the welding and grinding on a mag than the whole milling of that ruger receiver hell mine has tool marks on it underneath the wood, probably to cut costs... It's pretty obvious you don't know what you are talking about at this point. Ruger = cheap and readily available. there is no comparison to be made...

Most of the parts I'm talking about are manufactured by the thousand or so per month and are made of high quality material in really big expensive machines that suck a lot of power by skilled operators who demand top dollar similar to AGD Quality starts at the beginning . The rinky dink parts you are referring to are out sourced to the lowest bidder who is spitting them out and has such crappy tolerances that I've had to replace the bolt in my .22 2 times since I bought it in 2000. Funny how my Browning Sporting clays gun has alot more recoil and I shoot it alot more but it never breaks....

I have not experienced the same problems with my Ruger as you have. You say your Browning is much more reliable, and I'm willing to bet it also cost well over two grand. It's the same principle with the AutoMag: quality costs money. Yes, Browning could make a less expensive version of the same gun with the same action just as AGD could make a mag out of low-end parts but would you buy the Browning if it was powdercoated and had a cheap plastic stock instead of blued barrels and hand-polished walnut?

see that is a narrow minded fan boy perspective and while it's fine and acceptable in this environment it's just not a logical way to make a decision in the real world. The G3 is definitely a better buy than a new mag. The resale may not be the same percentage. But at least it will shoot almost a case of paint off a 68/4k fill, lighter, faster, blah blah blah.... I'm not trying to sell guns or change anyones mind just my opinion....

And remember the thread says unrealistic... be a little more open minded you jerks.

I don't see how it's narrow-minded at all. You have your priorities in selecting a marker, and I have mine. I could point out that air efficiency doesn't matter because I pay for all-day air anyway, weight doesn't bother me and that my Mag with Auto-Response frame is just as fast as a G3 capped at 13 bps.

And why are you referring to "logical decisions" if this is an "unrealistic" thread?

[cyrus-the-virus]

Laser guided land mines.

[JesseB]

[QUOTE=paint magnet]

What I'm trying to say is that if you have a sleeve strong enough to hold the gun together, then the plastic is purely for looks. Mag bodies cannot get any smaller, and you wouldn't save any weight by adding a plastic shell. Why spend so much time on a post? Well, why reply in the first place?





I have not experienced the same problems with my Ruger as you have. You say your Browning is much more reliable, and I'm willing to bet it also cost well over two grand. It's the same principle with the AutoMag: quality costs money. Yes, Browning could make a less expensive version of the same gun with the same action just as AGD could make a mag out of low-end parts but would you buy the Browning if it was powdercoated and had a cheap plastic stock instead of blued barrels and hand-polished walnut?





I don't see how it's narrow-minded at all. You have your priorities in selecting a marker, and I have mine. I could point out that air efficiency doesn't matter because I pay for all-day air anyway, weight doesn't bother me and that my Mag with Auto-Response frame is just as fast as a G3 capped at 13 bps.

And why are you referring to "logical decisions" if this is an "unrealistic" thread?

Why cap the BPS on any gun?
I pay for all day air too but that doesn't mean that I want to be standing in line at the fill station after every game and trying to refill pods and then running to get on the field or having a game start while im still trying to get ready.

You must not shoot the Ruger much. after a few thousand rounds one of my bolts cracked and then after being stored for a while and a few thousand more rounds the next one stopped ejecting.
The Browning Gold was a little over 1000
and I personally wouldn't purchase a cheaper model of that gun because it's not my style to use cheap junk.

I'll refer to what I want when and where I want. Thanks.

[Chronobreak]

ULE body/rail intelliframe and classic valve for around 300

[paint magnet]

[QUOTE=JesseB]

Why cap the BPS on any gun?
I pay for all day air too but that doesn't mean that I want to be standing in line at the fill station after every game and trying to refill pods and then running to get on the field or having a game start while im still trying to get ready.

You must not shoot the Ruger much. after a few thousand rounds one of my bolts cracked and then after being stored for a while and a few thousand more rounds the next one stopped ejecting.
The Browning Gold was a little over 1000
and I personally wouldn't purchase a cheaper model of that gun because it's not my style to use cheap junk.

I'll refer to what I want when and where I want. Thanks.

Currently over 5k rounds through the Ruger, and it's less than a year old. Bulk pack Federal, Winchester HPs, Remington Golden Bullets, Remington Subsonics, Federal AutoMatch, Augila Hyper-Velocity, CCI Mini-Mags, CCI Stingers, Quik-Shok, Wolf match-grade, American Eagle...you name it, it cycles it fine. Only ones I've had problems with were Remington Thunderbolt--even with a huge dent in the primer, some of them still don't go off.

The BPS cap is a safety and insurance issue.

[boroballer]

Hate to pull this back on topic (yes, I've got a 10/22 as well and love it) but AGD will eventually go out of business. Key word, eventually. Paintball will be around for a long time, AGD will be lucky to last another 5 or 10 years at this rate. First off, lets say there is nothing wrong with that. The company is currently being run out of a basement and is still able to generate considerable interest and revenue from ourselves and our AO peers. Secondly, even if AGD folds tomorrow, it will leave behind a dedicated corps of fans, several quality aftermarket sources, and an incredible legacy of guiding this sport through it's infancy.

That said, why not make a push. Borrow the money, design something with a shot at working, and try to push it hard on the market. Worst case scenario, and probably most likely scenario, it will fail horribly and the company will file for bankruptcy and close it doors for good.

But you gotta play to win folks, and I'd rather see AGD go out with a bang than a wimper.

[JesseB]

The BPS cap is a safety and insurance issue.

Strange that I've never been to a field that cares.
and they are all insured.... weird... just cant use anything other than semi.

[aqua_scummm]

I don't see how you can say that the G3 is absolutely better than a mag...

Does it use CO2? No
Does it come in a single trigger version? No.
Does it fit comfortably in my hands? No, it's too small.


3 deal breakers off the bat, aside from the fact that I hate the soft feeling of electro triggers...


Yeah, clearly the G3 is better than the mag, regardless of what features you're looking for.

[JesseB]

I don't see how you can say that the G3 is absolutely better than a mag...

Does it use CO2? No
Does it come in a single trigger version? No.
Does it fit comfortably in my hands? No, it's too small.


3 deal breakers off the bat, aside from the fact that I hate the soft feeling of electro triggers...


Yeah, clearly the G3 is better than the mag, regardless of what features you're looking for.

you sir are completely irrational and just trying to start poop.
re-read my post it was my opinion that if you were going to buy a new gun there are better options unless your heart is set on a mag.

Show me a decent single trigger frame that has been produced for the mag in the last 6 months.
the frame is proportional to the single trigger plastic frames... they are similarly contoured and only slightly different ... you are just splitting hairs because you feel like I was attacking you or your gun choice or something when im not.... I was not saying that is the end all be all of guns and everyone should own them. It was just an example of one gun that is a better value in my personal opinion than an Automag. I didn't say hey all you guys suck mag's suck Dangerous Powers owns AGD blah blah blah

I just said that for what I personally look for in a gun they make a good product and I could see myself and a large cross section of the paintball market purchasing and using them because they are affordable, fast, light, efficient, and it's not made by smart parts. Don't forget I didn't say it's the best gun for you or for everyone I just said its a good option and honestly I feel a better option than a mag if you are trying to get a mid range gun.

And I was comparing to the RT pro any way not the classic since you cant buy a new one from agd any way so your co2 argument is null and the frame http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...0#post46532080

And who cares about your hands? you.... buy your style of gun and stop trying to act like I'm telling you what to do.