Q loader practical for tourney?

[paint magnet]

Back to the Q-loader issue:

In my experience, the Q-loader is way more of a hassle than it's worth. For rec or scenario play, maybe. But in a tournament environment, losing the ability to shoot while reloading and only having a 100 ball capacity just won't cut it. That's not to mention the fact that it's unrealistic to put pods back in your pack during a game, and who wants to dig the mud out of their Q-pod after tossing it?

The pods also take way too much time to reload. If you shot 5 pods a game (500 rounds, a very conservative estimate) and it took you 3 minutes to load each one, that's an extra 15 minutes of prep time between games. Don't forget that they're also a lot harder to clean than a hopper should you have a ball break inside of one.

So unless you have vast financial resources and can afford 50 Q-pods and paying someone to load them for you, I would say no.

[punkncat]

It sounds to me like since you are so used to the warp and know it so well that simply sticking with it would be the way to go.

[GoatBoy]

Nah, not going to bother. You clearly have your opinion and no photo is going to show much different from what was already presented using your crude paint drawing, just on an even tighter scale (i.e. hand positions really only vary by maybe an inch tops). Again the hands do not travel outside of the shoulder's profile.

Well, yeah, can you blame me if my "opinion" seems to be based on geometry, physics, and obvious anatomy?

Come now, we're all here to learn from your example.

A properly set up gun is one that allows tilting of the loader without causing horizontal displacement of the wrist. It varies with personal preference and anatomy but in general it places the neck of the air tank just behind and below the gripframe (allowing the wrist to wrap around it).

OK, well, if you're not going to step up and play ball, let's take a look at some examples. Here are some tournament pics from Warpig; hope they don't mind me linking to them. (For educational purposes, of course.)



That gun is in a vertical position; it's not even tilted. Note the relative positions:

• Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
• Shoulder is inside the air tank
• The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker
• The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank. The tank is outside the barrel, and outside the shoulder, and we come to the conclusion that it's outside the bunker as well.

Here's a tilted example, albeit in front of a sloped bunker:

• Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
• Shoulder is inside the air tank
• The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker
• The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank (or at the very least, the wrist is outside the tank, and as far as I know, at least part of the arm is connected to the wrist on most humans). It's sloped downward, and with the aid of the slope of the bunker, it might be hidden. However, if that were a vertical bunker...

Here's one that only has a slight tilt:

• Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
• Shoulder is inside the air tank; possibly in line
• The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker by default.
• The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank. The tank is outside the barrel, and outside the shoulder, and we come to the conclusion that it's outside the bunker as well.

Here's one of the advertisements with Ollie Lang in it:



These pics look slightly different. We don't see a bunker, but let's imagine a vertical bunker in front of him.

• Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
• Shoulder looks in line with the air tank*
• The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker by default.
• The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank. Etc. etc.

It seems my "opinion" not only seems to bear logical, physical validity, but it also seems to have an empirical basis as well.

So, once again, I implore you to make a photo of your "gun setup", in a pose, to show us how it's done.

[GoatBoy]

Hrm, my camera's getting a lot of action these days

Back to the Q-loader issue:

In my experience, the Q-loader is way more of a hassle than it's worth. For rec or scenario play, maybe. But in a tournament environment, losing the ability to shoot while reloading and only having a 100 ball capacity just won't cut it. That's not to mention the fact that it's unrealistic to put pods back in your pack during a game, and who wants to dig the mud out of their Q-pod after tossing it?

The pods also take way too much time to reload. If you shot 5 pods a game (500 rounds, a very conservative estimate) and it took you 3 minutes to load each one, that's an extra 15 minutes of prep time between games. Don't forget that they're also a lot harder to clean than a hopper should you have a ball break inside of one.

So unless you have vast financial resources and can afford 50 Q-pods and paying someone to load them for you, I would say no.

3 minutes to load a q-pod?

I think you're off by a factor of 6 or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcvIMxSF9rE

It takes about 20 seconds from the time I start cranking to the time the pod is full, and that includes reaching up and turning on the Viewloader, which I forgot to do. There are no skips in the loading, and I'm not even rushing it.

Have you ever literally timed how long it takes to actually fill a normal 140 round pod? And by that I mean, really fill it to capacity, not just a sloppy fill.

I agree that it's a pain in the *** to put the pod back into your pack, but that's more of a function of the tournament rules than anything else.

I also have the solution for not digging the mud out of your pod after tossing it: don't toss your pod. Just drop it. No need for theatrics. Just let it fall to the ground right in front of you. Also, it's much easier to clean the end caps where you might get mud on the new pods, as you can pull them without losing your prewinds.

I've also never had anything break inside my pod that I can recall. When the pod isn't on the gun, then coil isn't engaged and the paintballs aren't feeling any pressure. Maybe if you get shot on the pack it might happen.

[drg]

Well, yeah, can you blame me if my "opinion" seems to be based on geometry, physics, and obvious anatomy?

For someone who seems to have such a firm grasp on anatomy, it's odd that you continue to miss what I said in my very first response to your diagram -- that the fact there is a person behind the marker renders the minimal change in wrist position meaningless, especially compared to the value of moving the hopper out of the line of fire.

Notice that in none of the images posted does the shooter's profile increase horizontally due to tilting the hopper. That is the whole point of doing it and setting up the gun to do it properly. The main thing is the arm is not forced outwards by the tank, as happens with a long or tall drop forward.

[paint magnet]

3 minutes to load a q-pod?

I think you're off by a factor of 6 or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcvIMxSF9rE

It takes about 20 seconds from the time I start cranking to the time the pod is full, and that includes reaching up and turning on the Viewloader, which I forgot to do. There are no skips in the loading, and I'm not even rushing it.

Have you ever literally timed how long it takes to actually fill a normal 140 round pod? And by that I mean, really fill it to capacity, not just a sloppy fill.

I agree that it's a pain in the *** to put the pod back into your pack, but that's more of a function of the tournament rules than anything else.

I also have the solution for not digging the mud out of your pod after tossing it: don't toss your pod. Just drop it. No need for theatrics. Just let it fall to the ground right in front of you. Also, it's much easier to clean the end caps where you might get mud on the new pods, as you can pull them without losing your prewinds.

I've also never had anything break inside my pod that I can recall. When the pod isn't on the gun, then coil isn't engaged and the paintballs aren't feeling any pressure. Maybe if you get shot on the pack it might happen.

Putting the pod back in the pack increases your reloading time, unless you want to shoot one-handed. Even if you drop it, you risk getting debris (grass, dirt, paint splatter, whatever) inside the pod and having to clean it. I have not seen the new pods, so I can't comment on cleaning them.

Breaking paint is not usually the pod's fault, but if it does happen due to a hard slide, smacking a bunker, or taking a hit, then that pod is useless until you can devote the time to take it apart and clean it.

Yes, you can fill them faster if you have a permanent setup with a hopper anchored to the wall, but that's more stuff to keep up with at a tourney. It takes me all of 3 seconds to properly fill a 140 round pod: open pod lid, insert into bag of paint, hold bag around mouth of pod with other hand, invert, and you're done.

Plus, what if you run out of paint during a game? Unless all your teammates have Q-loaders, none of them can toss you a pod of paint, and vice versa.

[billmi]

Notice that in none of the images posted does the shooter's profile increase horizontally due to tilting the hopper. That is the whole point of doing it and setting up the gun to do it properly. The main thing is the arm is not forced outwards by the tank, as happens with a long or tall drop forward.

I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.

When folks didn't have a tank hanging off the bottom of their marker, and were trying to tighten their profile against a tree (an old-school bunker) they didn't stick out their arm and shoulder the way folks do now into that area where the tank is going during a tilt.

So yes, the tank isn't increasing the profile in that diagram, but if the tank wasn't there, the player (if they were thinking about what they were doing) wouldn't position their body there either.

No matter how you slice it - if you've got a hopper on top, and a tank on the bottom - and your bunker has a straight edge (even if it's diagnoal like on a dorito) tilring the top in is going to force the bottom out, and vise versa. The only way around it is to change the location of the tank and or hopper relative to the gun.

Of course those players back in the days when remotes were still hip didn't have to tilt, either, because centerfeed wasn't hip yet. Some freaking genius with the initials TK figured out that not only did a powerfeed keep blowback from bobleing paint up into your marker, but if you set up the powerfeed to put the hopper to the left side of your marker, the hopper stayed tucked behind cover when you leaned out to the right.

The toughest thing for me to learn with the Warp or Q was new body positioning - I took for granted where my big-old noggin could be, because that space alaready has a hopper in it. Get the hopper down, or gone, and suddenly my head is sticking out making my silouhette bigger than it needs to be. Had to learn to duck down more to really take advantage of the hopperless profile.

[Beemer]

No hopper can push paint through a hose like the warp can. That's been posted in other threads. Yes, I've used the warp long enough to know how the angles are affected, and anyone that thinks they can play just as tight with a hopper on top of the gun, is just plain wrong.

But they wont admit it.

Since you're already playing with a warp then you already apparently will understand more about marker and body geometries than the others.

Ya the others just need to be actors I guess.

I dont intend on ever playing with a hopper on top again. You dont shoot offhanded with a warp, you just roll it over. Most tourney players won't make the adjustments to use the warp effectively.

I havent played with hopper on top since the warp came out and dont plan on it. Funny thing when the warp first came out it was banned on the tourny scene. Know why???

Its ok Punkncat we know you are no actor.

I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.
Of course those players back in the days when remotes were still hip didn't have to tilt, either, because centerfeed wasn't hip yet.

I remember. Is centerfeed hip now? No one told me. Did I miss or not get the memo.


Paintball players should take an acting class........

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/T...WarpLesson.wmv TomKayeWarpLesson 4.8Meg, two minutes

I wish all paintball players could be actors

[drg]

I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.

When folks didn't have a tank hanging off the bottom of their marker, and were trying to tighten their profile against a tree (an old-school bunker) they didn't stick out their arm and shoulder the way folks do now into that area where the tank is going during a tilt.

So yes, the tank isn't increasing the profile in that diagram, but if the tank wasn't there, the player (if they were thinking about what they were doing) wouldn't position their body there either.

No matter how you slice it - if you've got a hopper on top, and a tank on the bottom - and your bunker has a straight edge (even if it's diagnoal like on a dorito) tilring the top in is going to force the bottom out, and vise versa. The only way around it is to change the location of the tank and or hopper relative to the gun.

Of course those players back in the days when remotes were still hip didn't have to tilt, either, because centerfeed wasn't hip yet. Some freaking genius with the initials TK figured out that not only did a powerfeed keep blowback from bobleing paint up into your marker, but if you set up the powerfeed to put the hopper to the left side of your marker, the hopper stayed tucked behind cover when you leaned out to the right.

The toughest thing for me to learn with the Warp or Q was new body positioning - I took for granted where my big-old noggin could be, because that space alaready has a hopper in it. Get the hopper down, or gone, and suddenly my head is sticking out making my silouhette bigger than it needs to be. Had to learn to duck down more to really take advantage of the hopperless profile.

Yes, they were once popular but fell out of vogue for many reasons. The game has changed a LOT since those days. Having played since those days (and having used a remote back in the day).

[JesseB]

LOL @ Goatboy for getting all up in arms about a qloader....


Tilting works well for reducing profile and if you can keep tight with your elbow in a vertical position iyour profile is almost as small as a warped or qloaded gun. The little advantage that a q or warp does make is not worth sacrificing offhand shooting and offhand profile. plus you still have your face behind the gun and there is nothing that can be done about that.

the only thing a warp ever did for me is got me shot in the face more since there was nothing there to take the shot.

It does take longer to load them than a normal pod... I can do a full case of paint with a pod filler before you load 5 of those bad boys. they are expensive, sensitive to the elements, and too small of capacity.

I don't think it would be practical for tournament play unless it was a pump tourney.

They are great at what they do but what they do just doesn't meet my expectations for tournament gear. I would rather be able to shoot while loading, shoot offhanded, and leave my pods around without worrying about someone shooting them or getting dirt in them.

[MoeMag]

Q loader practical for tourney?

No.

[GoatBoy]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and Paintball Talk

Putting the pod back in the pack increases your reloading time, unless you want to shoot one-handed.

I don't disagree with the fact that putting the pod back in the pack increases the reload time. Again, that is more of a comment on the rules of the field than anything else.

However, since you brought it up, you realize that the whole "I want to be able to shoot while reloading" is ... one handed shooting. So if you do stay true to your "I want to be able to shoot while reloading"... you are... going to be shooting one handed.

So to sum up your argument: I don't want to shoot one handed while reloading, but I like reloading a conventional hopper because it lets me shoot one handed while reloading. Hello?

I think I see how this game works now.

Even if you drop it, you risk getting debris (grass, dirt, paint splatter, whatever) inside the pod and having to clean it. I have not seen the new pods, so I can't comment on cleaning them.

Breaking paint is not usually the pod's fault, but if it does happen due to a hard slide, smacking a bunker, or taking a hit, then that pod is useless until you can devote the time to take it apart and clean it.

And what happens if the exact same thing happens with a conventional pod?

With a conventional pod, that is useless until you can devote the time to take it apart and clean it.

You take it back after the game and you clean it, either case.

Yes, you can fill them faster if you have a permanent setup with a hopper anchored to the wall, but that's more stuff to keep up with at a tourney.

I really kind of miss the good old days of paintball where you would see people being creative and trying out different stuff. Nowadays, if it's not sitting in a blister pack on a Walmart shelf, then it's not ... "viable".

I can easily waste your 3 minute estimate of a q-loader pod, and I can do it anywhere there is a TABLE with a minimum amount of components. You tournament guys have tables, right?

Or wait, forget that, I can do it with a CHAIR. I can hang it off the back of a chair and it will still work. Forget the table.

Wait, what do I need a chair for? I can just hang it off the back of another teammate while he's filling his pods. We can have kind of a reload train party!

The components that make up the reloading process are: a flexible tube (which I would carry to cannibalize for spares anyways), a reload socket, maybe an elbow, and a conventional hopper (which I would keep around as a spare in case the q-loader system completely died anyways), and some small device (in my case, two reusable zip-ties, or a coat hanger, or a bungie cord, or a ... ) to hold the thing to SOMETHING. Half of the system is made up of spares or stuff I would want to have on hand anyways. (You do carry a spare hopper, don't you? Or is that too much stuff to keep up with?)

This is an easily, realistically solvable problem. Move on.

It takes me all of 3 seconds to properly fill a 140 round pod: open pod lid, insert into bag of paint, hold bag around mouth of pod with other hand, invert, and you're done.

Let's see a video. What you're describing is either not truly 3 seconds, or if it is 3 seconds, it's a sloppy pod fill, and that has its own consequences. You were already massively, provably wrong on the q-pod reload speed, and I'm going to say that you are massively, provably wrong on this point as well. I've watched a lot of people reload pods. I'm keen to watching all kinds of these little processes. I've done it myself for the, what, 12+ years or so of paintball prior to getting my Q-Loader. It takes longer than 3 seconds. A lot longer than you apparently realize.

Plus, what if you run out of paint during a game? Unless all your teammates have Q-loaders, none of them can toss you a pod of paint, and vice versa.

Aren't most really competitive games are over before your front guys run out of paint?

Aren't most front players too spread out and too far from their backers or anyone else for that matter to make pod sharing really realistic?

Going from there: aren't most players too butter-fingered to gracefully recover a fumbled hopper that fell off their gun? Isn't the guy that's tossing you paint going to be mad that you made him shoot one-handed? Or, as a front player, are you going to run back over to his bunker, grab a pod, then run back forward?

Are you just making stuff up?

It really sounds like you are making stuff up that actually does not have either have an very easy, obvious solution, or is particularly realistic.

I could do the exact same thing you're doing and make conventional pods and hoppers sound bad as well.

Boo hoo what if you land on your pod and you break paint? That thing is useless!

What if your lid on your pod breaks? That thing will lose all your paint! Boo hoo! And then you might get dirt in there!

What if the lid on your hopper breaks? Every time you run you'll be spilling paint everywhere!

What if your halo gets dirt or debris inside of it? That thing is worthless unless you get a chance to clean it!

What if you get a ball break INSIDE your hopper itself! You tournament guys are using thin shelled paint, so you know it can happen.

What if you have an electronics malfunction due to environmental conditions and your halo stops feeding?

What if your batteries run low?

What if a wire comes loose?

What if during all that, your rip drive knob breaks?

What if your feed neck or feed tube breaks because it's having to carry all that weight on the top while you're running, jumping, diving, and "slamming really hard into bunkers"?

Basically, half the things you see in blooper videos, like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVE5eE4MVjw


I could go on and on, and I get the feeling that you could too. The difference is I can distinguish a sustainable, well thought out argument from a bad one.

I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.

No matter how you slice it - if you've got a hopper on top, and a tank on the bottom - and your bunker has a straight edge (even if it's diagnoal like on a dorito) tilring the top in is going to force the bottom out, and vise versa. The only way around it is to change the location of the tank and or hopper relative to the gun.

Ahh... I was wondering when you would stop by. Hi!

Yes, I remember when remotes were popular. I actually just recently sold one of my remotes. Those were... the not so good old days.

The sad part is... the milsim guys have sent marker technology back like 15+ years, because all of those guys are going BACK to remotes. These are dark times...

We went from on-gun no-drops, to remotes, back to on-gun with huge dropforwards, and then back to on-gun no-drops. It's like technology has come full circle. Makes some of us who never upgraded past the first stage kind of feel at home...

The reason I mention the drops is in light of your note... The only "drop" I have EVER used is my LX3 swivel -- in my opinion the best drop ever made (and consequently the best drop ever discontinued, never to be seen again; I'm hanging on to this one). I finally removed it from my marker last night upon receiving my y-grip. I effectively used it in sort of a no-drop configuration, but with one distinction: I used it to offset the tank to the inside. THAT is the "proper gun setup" which helps reduce arm/wrist/shoulder pop-out, and sadly, you're the first person in this thread to mention the idea of changing the relative component positions. There was also the benchmark offset cradle, but that was not quite as svelte.

LOL @ Goatboy for getting all up in arms about a qloader....

It's not about the q-loader, it's about the lies.

If you were to ask me point blank about the q-loader, my answer would basically stand as this: probably not for most tournament players. Tournament rules from what I understand would make them not feasible for anyone. Second in line is their limited paint capacity.

What I have a problem with is the outright lying, hypocrisy, and overall unevenly applied "logic". A 3 minute pod reload is an outright, provable lie.

Saying that a conventional hopper can be tilted inward and hidden without repercussions is an outright, provable lie. I can make a formal, mathematical proof for that one.

You guys might as well be saying that q-loaders are bad because they contain small demons that will magically jinx you at the worst possible moment.

I'm not going to challenge the fact that you can load paint faster with an auxiliary loading device... but I will wonder if the presence of such an auxiliary loading device will be "too much stuff to keep track of at a tournament" for players such as paint magnet.


It comes down to this: if you look at the systems (WHATEVER loader system -- halo, q-loader, warp, evlution) and find they don't meet your specifications or the way you prefer to play, fine. But don't resort to lies (and half-truths... and half-logic).

[GoatBoy]

This one's for you, paint magnet

I was about to head to bed, and then the thought occurred to me...



Is the box that your paintballs came in... too much stuff to keep track of at a paintball tournament?

Like I said, I miss the good ol' days.

[drg]

You guys might as well be saying that q-loaders are bad because they contain small demons that will magically jinx you at the worst possible moment.

This one might be true! Haha
Anecdotally, though, I do notice that whenever I see the rare qloader user, he invatiably turns out to be rather noobish and near worthless on the field.

I strongly considered qloading myself when I was moving to force feed. Couldn't really think of a mounting I liked, personally.

BTW you will note that at least in my responses, I never stated or implied that a traditional hopper setup plays as tight as a qloader in any particular situation. I only replied to your equally misleading statements in response to others earlier in the thread.

[JesseB]

It's not about the q-loader, it's about the lies.

If you were to ask me point blank about the q-loader, my answer would basically stand as this: probably not for most tournament players. Tournament rules from what I understand would make them not feasible for anyone. Second in line is their limited paint capacity.

What I have a problem with is the outright lying, hypocrisy, and overall unevenly applied "logic". A 3 minute pod reload is an outright, provable lie.

Q loader practical for tourney?

Doesn't get more point blank than that Chief.


yeah whatever I have 2 bags with wheels so many guns, parts, tanks, and other stuff that the pod rocket fits in quite nicely...

Also where do you play where they count used pods as live equipment? That's lame... I am pretty sure that's not the way it works.... do you have an excerpt from a rule book somewhere?

I've seen people take 2 minutes to load a normal pod a handful of paint at a time so I have no doubt that someone could take 3 or even 5 to load a qpod... You underestimate the stupidness of some people....