An hypothesis for a lighter, more efficient air system than HPA.

[Hilltop Customs]

propane is abundant, cheap, and not any more dangerous than 4500psi compressed air. Considering anything completely safe while being handeled by unsupervised kids is insane. Propane burns, thats widely known.....now consider the fact that if something leaks the first thought is to oil/grease.....personally I think that makes HPA more dangerous than propane. Oh and propane has the additional benefit of a very distinguishable smell, so it should be noticeable before it becomes a hazard.

Any way you slice it, compressing air is an inefficient process....thats why it heats up so much as it is being compressed. I'm too lazy to try and do the math now, but the amount of energy stored in a 4500 psi tank is amazing. I would hate to even consider the cost of a battery with comparable energy storage(especially if you want to go high tech with lightweight lithium....and a battery of that type would not really be any safer than a pressure tank, seeing that an internal or external short would cause fire or an explosion)

[Chris Nearchos]

your right. no matter how you slice the pie, you will have problems one way or another. its just all about finding new or better technology to help get around a curve.


but to add more to the pie, what abotu just a marker completly powered by a battery? wasn't there a manufacture working on that idea and had something working?



btw, what happens when you have a leak in the air line or tank of the propane and the user goes for a dive and creates a spark in just the right way?

i know its a stupid question that has the slimest probability of happening. but its something the paintball insurance people and the general public will be asking of and be highly affraid of.


again, not trying to kill the idea. just asking questions.

-Chris

[Army]

Propane would require by law, state mandated valves and tanks. Handling permits and dispensing licenses would put it far above the cost of simply pumping air.

[Chris Nearchos]

Propane would require by law, state mandated valves and tanks. Handling permits and dispensing licenses would put it far above the cost of simply pumping air.

that is true, didnt even think of that legal side. good thinking!

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

I wasnt aware of anyone that had a marker fully powered by a battery. I'd be curious how they actually propelled the paintball, a magnetic ram or some other means.

as for a leak in the airline, first rule I would have for coming up with a completely new design in a marker that would require this much development time(new power source) would be no exposed airlines.....but just for this, lets say they have macro just like a mag.

Unless it is some type of major leak(which I doubt anyone would play with) to actually burn/explode you need a mixture of propane and oxygen. This mixture would only exist outside the marker, and only exist if the gas has pooled around the area of the leak. If ignition happens to occur, there would be a puff exterior to the marker, but since no oxygen is held within the macroline, no combustion should occur internally(no exploding airline or exploding marker). The reason no oxygen would be able to infiltrate the marcoline leak is because there is positive pressure internally, meaning the only flow should be propane leaking out, no air entering the system.

I know the idea of using an explosive gas is kind of scary, but a flamable gas needs oxygen to burn, just like an oxygen/HPA tank needs a fuel to burn. In my book they are just as dangerous as each other, but both are completely safe if you can keep the fuel separated from the oxygen(that is till they enter the combustion chamber).



edit: Army, what about if the cheap disposable tanks were used? Or what if we used tanks that were filled by offsite registered users. These tanks would be cheap and also get a large number of shots per fill. In the long run it would be worth it for fields to convert, but just hypothetically speaking, the actual user doesnt need a license or anything right?(anyone can go buy those disposable tanks)

[Chris Nearchos]

i totally agree. it is very safe if used correctly. but lets think about some 14 yr old from pbn playing around with the marker and doing home "mods" to it.

-Chris

[Chris Nearchos]

edit: Army, what about if the cheap disposable takes were used? Or what if we used tanks that were filled by offsite registered users. These tanks would be cheap and also get a large number of shots per fill. In the long run it would be worth it for fields to convert, but just hypothetically speaking, the actual user doesnt need a license or anything right?(anyone can go buy those disposable tanks)

think about the propane cylinders for grills. that should give you an idea for the end user and what he or she will have to deal with.

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

same could be said for the 14yo user from pbn using oil to fix their fill nipple leak. Any of these gasses are dangerous in the wrong hands. This is all hypothetical, but I'd think people would realize the danger when they hear propane(espically when their parents are BBQing with it) instead of high pressure air, which doesnt really sound dangerous....at least to me.

[Chris Nearchos]

same could be said for the 14yo user from pbn using oil to fix their fill nipple leak. Any of these gasses are dangerous in the wrong hands. This is all hypothetical, but I'd think people would realize the danger when they hear propane(espically when their parents are BBQing with it) instead of high pressure air, which doesnt really sound dangerous....at least to me.

true, but let me ask you this.


how many people have been killed or seriously injured using compressed air (CO2 or hpa) tanks in paintball? or even in general

now the same question with propane cylinders.


now think of the effect its gonna have with the cost of feild operating cost (insurance) and how that price will effect the end player. increased feild fees, higher paint price, higher price on cylinder filling, etc.


lol, i never knew how much fun it can be playing the bad guy in a idea thread. might have to do this more often. makes me think even harder bout the subject and idea.

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

I really dont see why it would increase insurance costs, but then IDK much about paintball insurance

Most other costs should remain about the same between co2/air/propane fills. Its true that fields wouldnt be able to generate their own propane, but they could get bulk tanks filled relatively cheap and easily since propane is a widely available from many sources.

For the death comparison, you have to compare user base also. Or compare death/user ratios. Not many people are exposed to HPA, at least the 4500 psi we use every time we go out to play. The users that I can think of are mainly paintball, scuba, firemen, and I'm sure there are more, but considering the millions of people who grill every weekend using propane, the numbers of users are definitely skewed toward propane. Dont make me bust out King of the Hill on you.

[halB]

**Edit**

as for finding a step inbetween comment, let me ask you this. why convert from one gas to another when in the end, your gonna be needing more to make a marker function then what you did with in the begining? while in the process making it more dangerous for people to use?

not trying to kill your idea, just wanted to ask that.

Why? Well, the way I see it, especially after holding an ULE xvalved mag with a stiffi barrel, is we can't really get any more weight savings from the gun. So we have to find weight savings in the next two pieces of weight, the CA tank and the hopper filled with paintballs. A propane tank AND a co2 tank should still weigh less than even a 45/45. I'm merely aiming for a weight saving.

[Ruler_Mark]

Why? Well, the way I see it, especially after holding an ULE xvalved mag with a stiffi barrel, is we can't really get any more weight savings from the gun. So we have to find weight savings in the next two pieces of weight, the CA tank and the hopper filled with paintballs. A propane tank AND a co2 tank should still weigh less than even a 45/45. I'm merely aiming for a weight saving.

It was a deadly wind.

[snoopay700]

Antifreeze would accomplish the very thing i am talking about: absorbing energy. However, CO2 would do it a lot more efficiently and compactly (although it would be a resource that is used up) because it goes through a phase change - just like air conditioning. I just wouldn't bother pumping it back into a liquid...

or... would there be enough excess energy from the propane explosion TO convert it back into a liquid...

but then, you'd just be moving the heat to another part of the gun. So I guess exhausting the used CO2 would be the best decision.

edit: It would be two tanks, the CO2 would never be combined with the propane.

No, no antifreeze wouldn't, because anti freeze would only cool the gun until the antifreeze became hot, that's why you would need some kind of radiator/heatsink. However, like i said, heat is the least of your worries with a propane powered gun, the C3 is pump not because it could spew fire, because it would be very very hard to get any semi propane gun to spew fire, probably impossible, the problem lies with getting it to cycle. If you used co2 in conjunction with this you could in theory make a semi gun by making it a cocker sort of marker, however then the co2 would freeze up the 3-way and such and you would have problems there. As for a purely propane powered semi, it would be near impossible to do because you need to get the exhaust in, then get fresh air in, there wouldn't be enough excess energy to do that, that's why they made it pump.

[Spider-TW]

I wasnt aware of anyone that had a marker fully powered by a battery. I'd be curious how they actually propelled the paintball, a magnetic ram or some other means.

Iirc, it had a rechargeable battery and a small compressor. Kind of like putting one of those emergency tire pumps and a tool battery on a low pressure marker. I think the max rate of fire was like 6 bps, but I think it had some other rate limit, like balls per minute...

I would like to know if it sounded like it looked.

[Spider-TW]

As for a purely propane powered semi, it would be near impossible to do because you need to get the exhaust in, then get fresh air in, there wouldn't be enough excess energy to do that, that's why they made it pump.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tippmann had a reciprocating setup (or at least partially operable semi) in a shop closet. Recocking then should just be a matter of a larger combustion chamber; but I agree, small engine maintenance and weight would not be practical.