Winter Boredom

[211]

So Im stuck in the snow and sub-freezing temperatures, which unfortunately means I dont get to go out and play nearly as much as I would like, or do in the warmer months
So to get my fix I cruise PB forums, and indulge my tinkering heart
Here is the result of my most recent boredom (just finished the mechanics on my super gun and needed something else to do)


So Ive been messin with this gun for a few months now, I got most of the parts for next to nothing, or they were spares from previous builds, but I thought it needed something more
so I took an old Bushy I had laying in pieces and converted the frame to work on my mag.
Now you may be asking why a bushy frame?
A. it was free
B. beats the heck out of the cut RT CF dbl trig frame that was on it

Some of you may be wondering about the barrel
1. Yes it is a silencer (and it works awesome, there is more noise from the mechanics of the gun than the pop of air)
2. Yes Im an American
3. Yes its legal (Ive reserched the ATF requirements for legality and checked with my local police)
4. No I will not tell you how to make one on a public forum

I know she isnt real pretty, but Im working on that (got alot more months of winter to kill)
Ill be spending a while polishing the body nice and smooth, then it and the silencer will get a nice matte black painjob
I will be putting a new rail on it, I want an RT length so I can mount the front grip vertical with some room between it and the frame (really want one of those Venomous Design rails , very cool)
Gotta put LVL X in, with the flatline she outshoots my torque so I need some antichop
and who knows what else will happen to it before the spring thaw

So what do you think?
and if youve got any winter killing projects, SHOW THEM OFF!!

[MAGslinger]

Wow, that form 4 paperwork sure looks nice. Must of been a pain in the butt waiting for the paperwork to clear..

[wetwrks]

Wow, that form 4 paperwork sure looks nice. Must of been a pain in the butt waiting for the paperwork to clear..

No form 4 necissary. If you notice it is bolted to the gun. Per ATF rules, any "silencer that is perminantly attatched to the paintgun isn't a firearm silencer. Now if he removes it for any reason he has just committed a major crime by creating a firearms silencer.

http://www.atf.gov/alcohol/info/revrule/rules/atf_ruling2005-4.pdf

Major quotes of note:

The device cannot be removed from the paintball gun without destroying the barrel and rendering the
paintball gun unusable. Under these circumstances, the integral device is not a firearm muffler or firearm silencer.

However, once the device is cut from the paintball gun, it can be used to diminish the report of a firearm.

removal will result in the making of a silencer under the NFA and GCA.

Possession of a silencer not registered to the possessor, and a making or transfer that does not comply with the NFA and regulations are punishable by imprisonment for up to 10 years, a fine of $250,000, or both.

[211]

Wetwrks has got it right, no paperwork filed
the mag is the perfect platform for a silenced paintball gun, as the barrel is also the breech, therefore no barrel, no working gun

Although the cops did give me the strangest looks when I walked in with it in hand, they had no clue what I was even talking about until I showed them the ATF ruling

[Dark Frost17]

it was nice hear in sunny fl about 75 today.... thats cool looking though

[XM15]

I have never seen the BATFE define permantly attached as bolted to the gun or barrel. They prefer things to be welded, blind pinned and welded over or even high temperture silver solder. What the cops told you is worthless. What you read on the website is also useless. It doesn't tell you any thing about what in ATF's view is and isn't permantly attached and what would be considered unusable by ATF's standards. What you need is a determination in writting from the ATF Tech branch without that you are guessing at what is legal and what isn't. I would also point out that there are no comercially made paintball gun silencers on the market. That should be a warning flag that no one has got a approval letter for a design that passes the ATF's tests.

[Ninjeff]

I have never seen the BATFE define permantly attached as bolted to the gun or barrel. They prefer things to be welded, blind pinned and welded over or even high temperture silver solder. What the cops told you is worthless. What you read on the website is also useless. It doesn't tell you any thing about what in ATF's view is and isn't permantly attached and what would be considered unusable by ATF's standards. What you need is a determination in writting from the ATF Tech branch without that you are guessing at what is legal and what isn't. I would also point out that there are no comercially made paintball gun silencers on the market. That should be a warning flag that no one has got a approval letter for a design that passes the ATF's tests.

or that no one thought it was worth the hassle.

I certainly dont argue with your logic, just i still cant figure out why its such a big deal.

[wetwrks]

or that no one thought it was worth the hassle.

I certainly dont argue with your logic, just i still cant figure out why its such a big deal.

The problem is that anything that can "silence" a paintgun can and will silence a real gun. At one time there were a number of companies making paintball silencers. I bought one. The ATF stepped in and threatened no only to go after the companies but also the players who bought the products. In the end the companies made an agreement with the ATF that they would stop making the silencers and the ATF would drop the charges against the companies and ignore the existing silencers. But the ATF has and is watching closely for items like this, EXPECIALLY in this anti-firearm, anti-paintball, anti-terrorism environment. This ruling is the first pro-paintball silencer ruling they have made.

[wetwrks]

I have never seen the BATFE define permantly attached as bolted to the gun or barrel. They prefer things to be welded, blind pinned and welded over or even high temperture silver solder. What the cops told you is worthless. What you read on the website is also useless. It doesn't tell you any thing about what in ATF's view is and isn't permantly attached and what would be considered unusable by ATF's standards. What you need is a determination in writting from the ATF Tech branch without that you are guessing at what is legal and what isn't. I would also point out that there are no comercially made paintball gun silencers on the market. That should be a warning flag that no one has got a approval letter for a design that passes the ATF's tests.

I do agree with you on this in that there could be issues about how "permanent" the ATF would consider bolting. The people who did the test subject basically used a gun that the body and barrel was a one-piece. Also any "part" of the silencer is considered a silencer. Thus if you remove just the shroud or the endcap you have just created a silencer.

The other problem is that a written determination isn't worth the paper it is written on. They often contradict themselves on these and even give different determinations on the exact same thing to 2 different people. The ATF issues these determinations and then act on them as law when the ATF doesn't have the authority to create law. Then when you present these "written determinations of law" as a defense of your actions, they declare their oppinions to be different from what the paperwork states.

[211]

Yeah its a dangerous grey area, but I feal pretty safe with my design, which is more permanently attached than just bolted on, only the cover is actually bolted to the minimag body, the rest of it IS permanently attached to the gun
I would love to see someone try to use this as a firearm silencer, seeing their faces when it burst into flames with the first shot would probably convince them it wasnt going to work

[XM15]

Wetwrks your right about a determination letter the ATF goes back on its rulings all the time. However they are more likely to just make you surrender the device than charge you with a violation of the NFA. A couple of years ago a guy named Atkins came up with a replacement stock for Ruger 10/22's that had a spring buffer system in it basicly making the gun fire simulated full auto useing the recoil of the gun to trip the trgger. He actaully got a approval letter then started selling them. The ATF came back and said wait a minute its now a machine gun. He is out of business and the stocks he sold are being conviscated but he and his customers are not going to club fed for a madatory 10 years $10,000 min. It is really best not to get into the grey area where NFA items are invovled its not worth it.

[wetwrks]

Wetwrks your right about a determination letter the ATF goes back on its rulings all the time. However they are more likely to just make you surrender the device than charge you with a violation of the NFA. A couple of years ago a guy named Atkins came up with a replacement stock for Ruger 10/22's that had a spring buffer system in it basicly making the gun fire simulated full auto useing the recoil of the gun to trip the trgger. He actaully got a approval letter then started selling them. The ATF came back and said wait a minute its now a machine gun. He is out of business and the stocks he sold are being conviscated but he and his customers are not going to club fed for a madatory 10 years $10,000 min. It is really best not to get into the grey area where NFA items are invovled its not worth it.

I followed the Atkins case closely. He got not 1 but 2 of the determination letters from the ATF the first they has an actual sample to play with (it broke on them) but they approved it based on what they understood it would do. The second letter approved the concept that had been sent to them that the gun would recoil and reset the trigger and the spring would bring the gun back forwards tripping the trigger making a cycle of fireing that simulates full auto.

It wasn't till they went into full production and a mess of them had been sold that the ATF came back and said "oh no, these are machineguns".

2 rulings say not machinegun and 1 says it is a machinegun. What ruling is correct? Guess it depends on who you are dealing with in the ATF.

[behemoth]

Is the ATF going to show up at the paintball field and bust him?

I'm doubting it.

If anything, fields will tell him he cant use it, but thats all i can see...

[Spider-TW]

What's the timeline on the ATF paintball ruling?

Around 1990 we used put shampoo bottle silencers on our pumps, but there wasn't anyone around to say

They probably could have silenced a .22 short, but like 211 said, they would blow up and burn like a stuffed animal on anything else. I know that would still get the feds' attention, but I think the poachers in the area did better with less.

[Sumthinwicked]

per their thoughts a ducttapped soda bottle works at least once on a gun and is illegal


and as to pb barrels that do have a silencer like try endgame products barrel they work if modded LOL but hey thats just what i HEARD