What are the Questions

[Beemer]

too bad there isnt just ONE site where i could go find all the standards that would apply to this industry

And there in lies the problem. There is no info and if there is where is it? Scattered ALL over.

If you dont know or dont care will you look for it? Or will you just use what ever you can get or have?

What is the burst disk on the tank for 3000 and 4500 PSI? what is it down stream for the same? How many regs have two disks? What is a safe fill at 4500psi? And on and on........... Ask Mark Contois what he thinks about all of it. Or ask his wife Colette, oh wait you cant. She is dead because PAINTBALL got stupid. You could ask Benita Johnson how she feels. Her son is dead beacause Paintball got stupid.

Thing is the industry today REALLY doesnt care about your safety and if they did a lot more info would be posted BY THEM or at the least they would follow the standards.

[Reiner]

Paintball didnt fail because of high rof/elec markers. They failed because there was no "governing body".

First of all, I don't think paintball failed yet, or at least not completely. There is still hope for a recovery.

I agree though that the fact that paintball doesn't have a governing body (one with teeth) hurts us.

The PSTA is starting to work together with manufacturers and field and store owners to write a set of standards to be followed. I don't know how much teeth this will have in the end, but hopefully it's a step in the right direction.

[Lohman446]

As noted above most major sports have at least some sanctioning body.

Hockey was the example

Softball has ASA

Auto racing has various

Even running as the USTA (I might be wrong on the designation)

Want to know something funny... I snowshoe competetively in races, and we even have a sanctioning and governing body. I can promise you far less people snowshoe competetively every year than play paintball.

[Reiner]

I can promise you far less people snowshoe competetively every year than play paintball.

Haha. You think?

[Beemer]

Haha. You think?

LOL Dodgeball has a real governing body. The question is how can paintball be so stupid after 25 plus years and not have a real governing body.

[Reiner]

LOL Dodgeball has a real governing body. The question is how can paintball be so stupid after 25 plus years and not have a real governing body.

The difference is paintball is both a sport and a hobby. Dodgeball is basically just a sport.

The majority of people play paintball as a leisure activity, moreso than a competitive sport. If anything, the paintball industry is more like the scuba diving industry. It's a pastime pursued by many that has potential dangers associated with it. We should probably have an association more like PADI.

[Beemer]

The difference is paintball is both a sport and a hobby. Dodgeball is basically just a sport.

The majority of people play paintball as a leisure activity, moreso than a competitive sport. If anything, the paintball industry is more like the scuba diving industry. It's a pastime pursued by many that has potential dangers associated with it. We should probably have an association more like PADI.

You lost me. Hobby, sport, passtime. Dodgeball and Scuba have a governing body. Rules AND standards that are followed. Paintball has rules and standards that arent followed. Hobby or passtime ya, sport...........I dont think so with out a true governing body.

Then again think IPPA and why did that fail?

[Reiner]

Sports have governing bodies that basically set rules of the game. They also set criteria that determies what levels players can play those games at. It's a much simpler process to set up rules and regulations for a relatively simple sport that virtually everyone plays in much the same fashion.

Paintball, for the most part is not a sport. There is the sport side to it, but it is realy only a small part of the whole paintball industry. Paintball needs a governing body to ensure everyone taking part in the activity is doing so in a safe fashion, whether in an arena (as a sport), at a commercial recreatioanl facility, or even playing privately (renegade).

For instance, PADI (in the scuba industry) ensures that everyone getting their tanks filled has gone through some basic training. Paintball has nothing of that nature in place. Virtually anyone can purchase a marker, or get propellant for that marker. I think at the very least there should be some kind of basic certification process in place, to ensure that someone purchasing a marker, or getting their tank filled has proven that at least they know the basic safety procedures involved with paintball. It doesn't need to be a complicated process. A simple 15 or 20 minute written test (might even be open book) that makes sure the person understands the basics.

The problem is in the past the paintball industry was so concerned about growing as quickly as possible, they didn't want any roadblocks of any nature in place that might impede the growth. That's probably still the case. Any kind of standards that might be at all difficult to achieve would slow growth, and we wouldn't want that, would we? Therefore there has always been a resistance to put anything in place that might actually make the industry a little more legititmate.

The diving industry looked at it differently. They knew that diving was inherently a dangerous pastime, especially without proper training (and admittedly it is much more dangerous than paintball). They knew that if they did not create anorganization that would police itself, it wouldn't take long for governments to do it for them. Governments tend to police with a heavy hand (they usually charge for it too, in the forms of fes and licences). Through the creation of PADI, the diving industry has been able to keep the strong arm of the government out of the industry for the most part.

The paintball industry has in the past, and will continue to in the future, have governments look at the industry with the eye to create restrictions for us. Governments don't really like to get involved in making rules for industries, but if they feel forced to because the industry itself is not doing so, they will.

[Lohman446]

The difference is paintball is both a sport and a hobby. Dodgeball is basically just a sport.

The majority of people play paintball as a leisure activity, moreso than a competitive sport. If anything, the paintball industry is more like the scuba diving industry. It's a pastime pursued by many that has potential dangers associated with it. We should probably have an association more like PADI.

I promise you that far more people snowshoe as a hobby over a sport (ever run in snowshoes, it is HARD). I have NEVER been to a competition that was not sanctioned by the USSA (and offered discounted entrance to USSA members). Aside from some snowshoes meant for children to play in I have not found any that do not meet USSA standards. More people run (normal running) for hobby than sport and I have never been to an event that was not sanctioned by the USATF. I can walk into any major sporting goods store today and I would have a hard time finding a softball bat that did not have the ASA stamp on it. And the idea of technology being the issue - my current snowshoes are pretty advanced compared to some that are used. Some are even more advanced.

Most "athletic" events that lead towards any kind of competition, even when done primarily as a hobby, have some sort of governing body.

[Lohman446]

What are the answers

Beemer, you seemed to have missed a point. The questions are there. IMO the answers start the same way the cheating did, in a niche segment.

Give me GOVERNED pump tournaments where safety, fair play, and honest competition are the game and I will be nearly instantly back into paintball, even if I have to travel to do it. Don't think we have to take on the entire "establishment" as it is, lets do it bit by bit. No "we are going pro" nonsense either.... lets keep the we can make money PLAYING crowd as far away as we can.

[billmi]

Paintball didnt fail because of high rof/elec markers. They failed because there was no "governing body".

In what way has paintball failed? It's not going through the booming growth it had a few years back, but that hardly qualifies as failure.

There's a lot of comparison of paintball to SCUBA in this thread. The most recent large scale sports participation survey data that the SGMA published in 2008 estimates that there are almost twice as many people playing paintball than participating in SCUBA diving, and more people playing paintball than BMX riding and surfing put together.

For instance, PADI (in the scuba industry) ensures that everyone getting their tanks filled has gone through some basic training.

Not exactly. I'm not PADI certified but I have never had a problem getting tanks filled or getting on a chartered dive boat. That's because I am certified by NASE.

NASE, PADI, SSI, NAUI, YMCA, BSAC, CMAS, and other SCUBA certifications are all widely accepted. As different groups, they do not all train to the same standards, either - for example I was trained with the Jeppeson materials to dive to max depth of 100 feet under my open water certification, while PADI open water certification only trains to a max depth of 60 feet. It gets even way more splintered when you get into niche areas like cave diving, technical or wreck diving certifications - the standards of each of those groups differ more widely. Tech divers routinely do decompression diving - something that is prohibited under PADI.

The SCUBA training agencies have no legal power, and use of any of their standards is voluntary - I have seen gear rented without proof of certification before, and dive operators taking divers on dives for which they were not certified, Dive charters taking open-water divers on wreck penetration dives is fairly common, especially in resort areas. The situation is very much like paintball, in that independent training/standardization is out there, but the enforcement is voluntary, and lies mostly in the insurance requirements and threat of liability losses.

Also, it is not uncommon for SCUBA shops to fill tanks without proof of certification if they know they won't be used for life support (i.e. diving.) Some shops will fill tanks painted (not for breathing) or with the customer signing a contract that they won't use the tank for diving. That has only come about since the paintball demand for high pressure compressed air.

In comparison paintball is far more organized and cohesive, in that the widely accepted safety standards come from primarily from one group, not several, and the insurance companies are fairly consistent with their requirements for field insurance policies.

The real reason there's not a single governing body for paintball is not to do with safety standards at all - it's to do with politics. NPPL, Inc. wanted to be the international governing body for paintball, but no way would PSP want to have to submit to the whims of NPPL leadership, so they started their own international governing body that went nowhere. Where are we going to find a scenario paintball producer who's going to want to have to use NPPL or PSP rules for their game?

Dodgeball and Scuba have a governing body. Rules AND standards that are followed. Paintball has rules and standards that arent followed. Hobby or passtime ya, sport...

The reality is that no sport has a governing body that everyone follows, it's the same in paintball as anything else. Sports have groups that set standards or rules that some participants in events sanctioned by that body need to follow. The NFL has no authority over a group of guys playing a pick-up game in a park. A group of kids playing footy afterschool don't always have to make sure their goalie is wearing FIFA approved gloves. I REALLY doubt that my local elementary school has bothered to check if their blacktop play area meet the standards of a dodge-ball governing body before letting their kids play, and I'll bet I can buy a ball for dodge ball at Sports Authority that hasn't been certified by a dodge-ball governing body. I helped drag a diver ashore who rented gear from a local shop and tried a solo dive (not allowed under PADI or NASE, nor I doubt any of the other sport diving agencies - but they happily rented him gear knowing what he was planning to do.)


Sports governing bodies only have authority over those that choose to follow them - just like in paintball, where a manufacturer can choose to follow published standards or not. At least at the manufacturing level, there are liability/financial advantaged to following the standards - at the player level, there typically are not..

Heck, even the legally required standards - like DOT's requirements for tank inspection and testing for any compressed gas tank that will be transported on federally funded roads don't always get followed even though they have the teeth of the law behind them. I knew someone personally who was killed by trying to fill a 3,000 PSI steel tank that was out of hydro and visual inspection dates - turns out it was rusted and it blew apart.

Example: a mask probley carries one for each part/item that makes up the entire mask itself,.. but we will say that ALL masks only have 2 parts. A lense, and a face protector

The lense itself must meet an ASTM standard for what its intended use is,... in this case it would be "eye protection". There is a single ASTM standard for such classification,.. but its very broad. We call this a "Division". Divsions help manufactures break down what guidelines their products are going to fall under long before they ever make it to proto-type phase.
So while the lense itself falls under "eye protection", it doesnt say what it protects eyes from. For all we know by that broad guideline,.. it could be said that $20 Home Depot Liquid Splash safety glasses are of equal protection to a paintball player as a Paintball lense.

Not exactly. ASTM F1776Standard Specification for Eye Protective Devices for Paintball Sport, by its very name is about protecting the eyes from a paintball - it does not consist of a separate lens standard, or anything about a mask. It includes performance based testing, firing paintballs from various angles at test dummy wearing the EPD, to be sure no paint can strike the eyes.

So under that broad division we find breakdowns of different ASTM standards called "Chapters". Chapters refine the elements of what the product function is under a Divsion. So now here is where you find the ASTM standard break away the products that do and do not suite our needs for paintball players. The lense protects the eyes,.. we know that. Now we need to find the chapter that uses "eye protection - impact". Meaning that the separation of the shop glasses and the paintball lense is further defined.

The product keeps getting re-defined until you make it to the bottom and have reached a complete ASTM coded standard for your product.

Except that for paintball, all of the standards from eye protection and netting performance to how to set up netting and what warnings a paintgun has to have on the packaging are under the division of sports standards - it's not distributed out to eyes, firearms, nets, etc.

Now,.. insurance ties all that together. Fields cant operate with equipment that does not meet "insurance guidelines". Insurance companies get their guidelines from ASTM and some of their own in house guidelines based off of "claim loss" they gather. The thing to remember here guys is the insurance company is out to make money,.. they dont want you to get hurt! That means they have to pay! What they want is a constant method to be paid and keep customers,.. by customers,.... thats the field owners,.. not the players.

Exactly, and that's the answer to MANN's question about why it is in a manufacturer's best interest to follow the standards, even though they aren't required by law, if there is an injury and the parties involved didn't follow standards that are widely accepted in their industry, courts typically find them more liable for the accident. It's in the insurance company's (and insurance customer's) best interest to mitigate liability by following the standards.

So what the field owner does it cuta small piece out of another small roll,.. zip tie it over the hole,... and call it a day. This still does not meet the ASTM standards guys,..

Which standard does that not meet?
You just described the repair procedure defined in 5.6.1 of F2184, Standard Guide for Installation of Paintball Field Netting.

The rate of fire is a perfect example of a non-ASTM standard that is enforced by an insurance company.....

Yes, but the recent widespread allowing of alternate firing modes and ROF caps didn't come from needing it for fields to retain players who would be bored and go home early, it came from the NXL Commissionar realizing that the previous limitation (semi-automatic) is impossible to enforce while still allowing players to use player-supplied electronic markers. Both ROF and velocity can be measured and enforced on the field, and that is why they were adopted in the NXL, and then trickled down to the rest of the industry, with some insurance programs offering policies for alternate firing modes.