How do you classify a Pneumag?

[Loneassassin]

I've been engaged in a friendly debate on Pbnation with this guy about Pneumags (and I guess any other gun that uses pneumatics to trip the sear). He says he does not consider them to be mechanical guns.

My point is simply: There are no electronics in them, therefore, they are mechanical.

I don't really see any reason to differentiate them from simpler mechanical guns. Granted, they are in a league of their own in the speed department, but only because the trigger is lighter. They still rely on user skill to shoot them fast, as there is no circuit board to monitor half-trigger pulls and whatnot.

Furthermore, there are no eyes to prevent chops - you must rely on mechanical methods to prevent that.

Your thoughts?

[kcombs9]

I would agree, inst the autococker a pnumatic mech gun? ask him about that.

Oh and you lose just by arguing with someone from PBN...

[Frizzle Fry]

I've been engaged in a friendly debate on Pbnation with this guy about Pneumags (and I guess any other gun that uses pneumatics to trip the sear). He says he does not consider them to be mechanical guns.

Then he's an idiot. Link us to the thread please?

[OPBN]

I've been engaged in a friendly debate on Pbnation with this guy about Pneumags (and I guess any other gun that uses pneumatics to trip the sear). He says he does not consider them to be mechanical guns.

Don't feed the trolls and they will go away. You're right. He's wrong, leave it at that. You don't need validation from some PBN Dbag.

[Loneassassin]

Well, he isn't the troll type. And he comes across as intelligent and respectful - I just don't agree with him, lol.

His point was that with Pneumags, there is no direct linkage between the trigger and the firing mechanism. It doesn't make any difference, in my opinion. It's all in how you look at it.

Here's a link to the thread:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3403571

[Frizzle Fry]

Well, he isn't the troll type. And he comes across as intelligent and respectful - I just don't agree with him, lol.

It's not a matter of agreement, the guys just confused.

[Daze]

Are they completely mechanical? Yes.

The better question is do they break the spirit of the "mechs only" day/tournament/scenario games?

[LK-13]

and here is my reply to the "Logic" this person employs:

ok, uh...
this is some daft logic here.
and just to qualify myself I am a machinist, that builds paintball guns and I have degrees in design engineering and Advanced theoretical physics.
this is in no way a personal attack so please don't take offence.

mech guns your finger pulls the trigger which is directly linked to the gun
Well yes, but all guns are connected to their triggers.
you might want to think of a way to re-phrase your point...

pneued guns the actuation of the trigger is done by the 3way hooked up to the ram
No. That is not correct. pulling the trigger depresses the valve/switch gas then moves the ram which trips the sear.
the ram does not at any time come into contact with the trigger.

also to say a pneumag or pneucocker is the same as mech is missing the point of pneuing those guns which is a shorter and lighter trigger pull leading higher rate of fire
but a higher rate of fire was the whole reason that Glenn Palmer came up with the Pneumatic Automation system that gave birth to the semi-automatic paintball gun... a design that was promptly stolen and mass produced.

also the 3way valve used for pneued guns could also be replaced by a solenoid,
and if my Aunt had balls she would be my uncle.
Sorry the fact you can replace parts with alternate parts is irrelevant.

and in the cases of the pneucockers the solenoid core is replaced with the 3way but the fitting from the noid is still used, making is less like a mech than it is like an electro,

[Frizzle Fry]

The better question is do they break the spirit of the "mechs only" day/tournament/scenario games?

Not really. I mean, you can do the same thing with an R/T valve or a ULT on/off. Both facilitate speed, be it by lighter trigger pulls or speedier more forceful valve resetting. There seems to be a sort of petty jealousy from users of blowbacks and cockers because Tom Kaye happened to make a mechanical marker that was faster and chopped less... People have been mimicking the R/T effect with blowbacks and creating anti-chop bolts for years now, but it doesn't keep up.

That's not to say that Tippmanns and Spyders and 'Cockers are inferior markers, but frankly I can get a greater ROF out of my Classic Valve mags and those predate blowbacks entirely. Hell my 1996 Classic R/T is faster than my pneumag, and theres no way you can classify that as being more "new-fangled" than a Tippmann X-7 or something.

[Frizzle Fry]

and here is my reply to the "Logic" this person employs:

Correct me if I'm wrong (I know I'm not...) but the sear assembly of the stock Automag is not in any way attached to the trigger. The trigger is held to the frame by a single pin, and the sear hangs down into the frame where it is "bumped" by the trigger but not actually attached to anything other than the rail.

[jinxed]

The old Vector had a pneumatic trigger.
Many of the 90s-era spoolers had pneumatic triggers (meaning, the trigger only actuated a 3way valve). ie Pheonix, Equalizer, Nova, etc

There seems to be a sort of petty jealousy from users of blowbacks and cockers because Tom Kaye happened to make a mechanical marker that was faster and chopped less..

My memory of the old school automags was they chopped paint more then any other gun, and the shootdown was horrific if you actually tried to fire fast. Those oldschool liquid blowbacks could run 40bps and never have any shootdown.... not that you could pull the trigger anywhere near that speed.

The whole point of the warp and RT was to correct those problems?

[Loneassassin]

The better question is do they break the spirit of the "mechs only" day/tournament/scenario games?

I don't think so either. They are just the ultimate mechanical guns. Heck, before I put pneumag mods on mine, it was still faster than my mech cocker (which is oh so smooth). With a ULT, a Mag is walkable. I think if I'd had a trigger stop at that time it would have been fairly easy to walk, as a matter of fact. The pneumatic parts just make it easier yet.

I think that RT's might kind of cross the line of "mechs only" though - just because it's basically full auto.

[Loneassassin]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I know I'm not...) but the sear assembly of the stock Automag is not in any way attached to the trigger. The trigger is held to the frame by a single pin, and the sear hangs down into the frame where it is "bumped" by the trigger but not actually attached to anything other than the rail.

Excellent point. I will bring that up if he decides to pursue the argument. By his rational, a regular Automag is not a mechanical gun...

[cockerpunk]

pump is a troll. we all once had an argument with him about the defintion of standard deviation. its not worth it.

[Bigwooly1013]

what's sad is i have alot of respect for that guy over on PBN he does some crazy things in the Pump cocker world. However he's completely off the reservation in this discussion.