Trouble with UThomas

[mostpeople]

The biggest problem here is it was paid for with PP Gift , you will never get that money back , it was a Gift you wern't buying something
I agree with , ArmyEngineer , SummaryJudgement , insixdays777
I disagree with ,

mostpeople ,
seller stated ;
" looks almost new " , after the hailstorm ??
It is in SWEET condition , ? sugary
Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall ; no description of the left side condition
I have very very rarely seen a used marker in this good of condition. I have owned 4-5 x-mags. None have been in this good of condition
well I've owned 3 X's still own 2 , the silver one I sold was in better condition than this one
most , if you would have recieved an Excall described as almost new , would this be acceptable to you ??

GH, you & me both have bought & sold a lot around here , If me or you had bought this one I think both of us would have been dissappointed

Here's the thing though, when you look at his photos you can clearly tell there is standard wear and tear from play. There are knicks all over it. And MM, the x-mag I sold you had standard wear and tear on it, but you didn't make at thread slandering me on the web, why? Because I told you it was used, and you knew what you were buying.

[maniacmechanic]

Here's the thing though, when you look at his photos you can clearly tell there is standard wear and tear from play. There are knicks all over it. And MM, the x-mag I sold you had standard wear and tear on it, but you didn't make at thread slandering me on the web, why? Because I told you it was used, and you knew what you were buying.

dents and scatches under the anno aren't from play IMO

[Tunaman]

Not taking any sides here. The same thing just happened to me on a Tunavalve I bought back. There was no mention of the circular gouge around the inlet fitting from someone using a pipe wrench on it. Its ruined. I won't mention who it was but he will never get another thing from me as he wont take it back for a refund. If you dont offer a refund then STATE it in your ad. If you are unhappy with the condition not as described you should be able to get a refund. I will refund anyone who is not happy.

[Smoothice]

dents and scatches under the anno aren't from play IMO

amen

[going_home]

I will refund anyone who is not happy.

The way it should be with us all.
I'm disappointed in Thomas being a well know mod of another forum refusing to do a refund.

[Drix]

Unfortunatly with that PP Gift it's a live and learn. I'm with you- I belive that he intentionally misled you in his descriptions. I'm not sure about anyone else but when I sell my markers I compare them to factory mint and not the general population- If I compared them to general population I'd have the nicest tippmann 98 that walks the planet ('cuz it's not a rental).

On the other side of things I'm not sure whats to be done- In the grand scheme of things and account banning or silencing won't help you get your money back nor would it keep him from selling most likely. Perhaps your best course of recourse is exactally this post.

[ArmyEngineer]

Here's the thing though, when you look at his photos you can clearly tell there is standard wear and tear from play. There are knicks all over it. And MM, the x-mag I sold you had standard wear and tear on it, but you didn't make at thread slandering me on the web, why? Because I told you it was used, and you knew what you were buying.

Mostpeople, I hope you don't really believe this is slander. I am not personally attacking Thomas, I feel like I have shown a great deal of restraint and I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But his PMs and refusal to issue a refund were enough to change my opinion. Also, I believe my claims are substantiated. I have taken more than 40 photos and linked all of them here, as well as all of our PMs after I received the marker. Maybe you have some loyalty to Thomas, and that is fine, but please do not insinuate that my statements are libel.

This is not regular wear and tear unless you play on and lay out in a parking lot or gravel pit. I don't know what else I can do to convince you.

Paypal gift was a huge mistake on my part. Unless you know the person you are buying from and you know that they are reliable, this is a very risky move.

I should have known when Thomas told me that in Texas, it's too bright to take pictures outside.

Those pics were actually in a light box - in Texas it is too bright and gets a bunch of glare. Anyway - I'll take some more pics but don't expect a pro photog It is gloss black - no pooling or fading in the anno - looks almost new (as you can see by how little wear on the valve there is).

Thomas

Drix, I think you are right. And I hope someone can learn from all of this. I certainly have.

[teufelhunden]

AE - unfortunate, sorry you're stuck in this.

To those of you saying "you bought a used gun, what did you expect?" - you people are unbelievable. The buyer went out of his way to try to ensure that he fully understood the condition of the gun. He was told, with a single exception (bottom of the battery anno wear), that the gun was "excellent" and looks "almost new." That is what the buyer should have received. It doesn't matter if the transaction was $10 for an Enzo right off the line, the item should be delivered in the condition described, without regard to the consideration.

UThomas - you'll read this, I'm sure. You should make this right with the buyer. He probed, quite deeply, about the condition of the marker. That should have indicated to you that he was going to inspect it closely upon receipt, and notice any "oversights" you may have made. Perhaps next time, when someone seems to be asking for extra information, you'll recognize that it's a picky buyer and try to get it right.

[hill160881]

This recently happened to me with an e-mag. Got a great price but the main body screw was stripped out as well as a screw in the battery case. The marker shook it self apart after 20 rounds, there were other issues as well. The battery died after a hopper, the valve needed a new on off pin(ground down), and a parts kit. The marker had custom annodizing so getting a new body/battery case was expensive with ano. I asked for 200 refund, or a return of the marker for a full refund . Seller was very apologetic and said either option was fine. Good seller and i doubt they actually knew about the damage.

Point is the seller is responsible for answering questions honestly about what they are selling, and disclosing all imperfections that an item has. The question of the condition of the finish was asked. Thomas lied, the proof is in the pics.

I would be

[C_losjoker]

he describes it as excellent and I see a very good condition xmag.

.02c

I would agree with Army on this. to me there is a BIG time difference in a excellent condition and very good condition marker. all of those blemishes that Army showed in his pictures(i only look at the ones on this thread) should have been stated by Uthomas. if any ano defect can be seen by plain eye, which i think most of them can be, he should have made them aware to all buyers. i have gotten a very old marker that was reano, no scratches, not played with since it was anod. but the seller did let me know that when it was reano there was couple little pit marks left behind, nothing that could be done with that. he sent me pictures of that, made full disclosure of everything on the marker, ano and all. i took a look at them, was ok with it and made the deal. guess what the marker came to me has he said and showed in his pictures. i was very happy with it and him for letting me know everything possible. and he did say if i was unhappy with it once i got it, we could do a refund. i would say Uthomas should do a refund for this, specially since he has buyers lined up.

[SummaryJudgement]

AE - unfortunate, sorry you're stuck in this.

To those of you saying "you bought a used gun, what did you expect?" - you people are unbelievable. The buyer went out of his way to try to ensure that he fully understood the condition of the gun. He was told, with a single exception (bottom of the battery anno wear), that the gun was "excellent" and looks "almost new." That is what the buyer should have received. It doesn't matter if the transaction was $10 for an Enzo right off the line, the item should be delivered in the condition described, without regard to the consideration.

UThomas - you'll read this, I'm sure. You should make this right with the buyer. He probed, quite deeply, about the condition of the marker. That should have indicated to you that he was going to inspect it closely upon receipt, and notice any "oversights" you may have made. Perhaps next time, when someone seems to be asking for extra information, you'll recognize that it's a picky buyer and try to get it right.

Agreed...with the similarly thinking people.

[teufelhunden]

he describes it as excellent and I see a very good condition xmag.

Meant to touch on this too - you hit the nail on the head. Described as excellent, not delivered as described. End of story.

[OPBN]

So who is going to step up and start making new/replacement X parts?

[Ando]

[UThomas]

Hey guys - don't read the Paintball Talk forum here so sorry for the delay. Fair discussion - obviously lots of opinions on this.

Couple thoughts:

1) Army was not expected to take a two word description of the marker (excellent condition - which is obviously relative and does not refer specifically to the anno) as his only data point. His excellent appears to be my "LNIB" - especially as it relates to a 5+ year old marker.

He asked very specific questions about very specific potions of the marker, and they were answered accurately the same way I have answered questions for dozens of satisfied buyers before him. The areas he is highlighting now were not asked about - but were photographed and provided to him.

I didn't see where he points this out, but he was provided multiple high resolution DSLR pictures of the marker (both the original in a diffused natural light box, and then at his request several full gun high res pics outdoors under natural light). These pics are about 4 meg each - and very detailed. I have those pics (link below) unedited as they were provided (except for cropping out my door mat to save space). They are of the full gun. They are high quality. And they speak to the condition - and IMO tell a very different story than his close up glare pics of a small section of the marker. I was highly responsive to his needs in seeing the marker under his conditions and took the pictures of the areas he requested.

outdoors at his request:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x1.JPG

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x6.JPG

addl pics:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x2.JPG

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x3.JPG

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x4.JPG

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x5.JPG

You can also see the marker in my X-mod youtube video. 4:45 shows the side "in question" of the marker.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Thomas4093?feature=mhum#p/a/u/1/deLJxhO7UQI

2) He has highlight a 1.5x1.5 inch section of the marker he feels has some pitting issues (not scratched - not thin anno). We disagree on how they look in natural light - but obviously they show up in those conditions. Compare to my pics in regular lighting at normal distance. When I sell guns I don't put them under a spot light to find flaws I don't see normally. At the start of this complaint I was originally just shown zoomed in pics with a bright light on them that makes the gun look purple:

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg299/scaled.php?tn=0&server=299&filename=img1478h.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

When I saw that - after he had gone to the mods who were making bratty posts (Beemer) on my sale thread - I thought "this guy is a jerk and either has buyers remorse or is not a reasonable buyer."

The rest of the marker does look to be in very very good condition cosmetically. Army would have a hard time posting pics showing otherwise (and hasn't tried obviously). Functionally - the gun is in excellent condition by any reasonable standard. I am the 2nd owner of this xmag - it has new seals, a new battery, working ace, fresh flashed xmod, etc.

3) I would offer him a full refund if I thought anything other than a NIB marker would have satisfied him to begin with or if I failed to provide him opportunities to learn about the markers cosmetic condition. I also was extremely aggravated that I found this issue out through a passive aggressive post by Beemer on the sale thread. That did not show me good faith on his part. As such - I offered to put him in contact with other interested buyers with cash in hand. Which he ignored - which again lead me to believe this is just not a reasonable buyer. You can see other posts he has made where he bought markers and had buyers remorse for not asking questions about the condition.

I also have a high expectation based on the interest I received at the $760 price point that he would be able to flip it quickly and for minimal (if any) loss. But he would have to do the "footwork" - which I think is reasonable and fair.

4) Army is a high maintenance buyer - he paid with e-check (requires 5 days to clear), he demanded higher res pictures, bids below a "firm" price, asks for extras, required special shipping, etc. Nothing "wrong" with that per se (buyers right) - but this is the context I was starting with - and I did accommodate all these requests. I think Army thinks that if he had paid with paypal normally, he just dispute this and then get his money back. My experience as a buyer says that is incorrect and it would have provided him no leverage. If I wanted to screw him over, I would have just not shipped the gun - sold it to the next buyer - and he would have had no recourse. Not only did I not do that - I threw in extras.

5) It is not about the money for me. In fact, I will offer to buy the marker back less 10% "restocking" for the hassle and shipping costs. So $700 Army - and you can keep the halo. As I told Army via PM - a lack of due diligence by an EXTREMELY discriminating buyer is not reason for me to eat shipping and transaction costs let alone the hassle.

6) Lastly - as far as my seller reputation - I have sold at least a dozen high value, collector guns over the past 15+ years of playing, buying, and selling on the net. Everything from aurora and multiple westwood cockers to multiple x-mags. Feel free to review my feedback on PBN since 2003 (I consolidated my feedback there over the years):

(2003-2007) http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=294665

(2007-now) http://www.pbnation.com/feedback.php?u=31613

Not one negative there (though I have had one here - a 14 yo kid who bought a max flo here about 7 years ago turned it up past venting pressure - and then paid a tech $50 to turn it down). I also didn't offer that kid a refund.

Thomas