EMAGs in the real world?

[cockerpunk]

"Heavy" is relative. It's on par with other electros of the era in which it was released. If you ever carried an Angel LCD, AKA Excalibur, Shocker 4x4 or Gen-E matrix into a tournament, you won't be shocked by the weight. If you're used to "lugging" around an Ego11 you might be in for a surprise though.

i do still shoot all of these types of guns on a regular basis. bringing up the ego 11 is exactly the point ... modern guns are much much smaller and lighter.

If you actually know how to tune your Level 10 there's no problem with consistent laning; it's very simple to do and anyone on here would be happy to help walk you through it. If that's too tough for you, you can use literally any of the electronic loaders on the market in tandem with an L7 or tuned-down L10 you will also be fine. There are very few situations that call for over 14bps, a speed that any loader sold these days (other than maybe one of the many lemon V-Maxs I've seen) can keep up with reliably.

there will always be a skip.

and all loaders skip.

No denying that almost every electronic marker is more efficient (I only get about 1600 shots off a 88/45), and you'd want to get your board flashed to XMOD so that you have the necessary modes - those would be my only concerns when it comes to staying competitive. In the sense that newer markers are lighter in weight, that's completely subjective. I'd like to hear what else "every way" entails.

well we already covered eyes, size and, weight, and you bring up efficiency ... what other variables do you really need?

my emag was Xmod

^^^^

[cockerpunk]

real men don't care about the weight, cause we have things called muscles...

better is a subjective question. Gordon has an opposite opinion, cause he likes to start shtuff. though they are heavier, so what? you can guarantee no chops with a L10. eyes and electronics can go bad, never heard of a L10 going bad. there are certainly cheaper alternatives, but that's like comparing a Chrysler K car or any other mass produced cheap vehicle;Kia, Geo, whatever(the Ion of the paintball world) to a McLaren F1. they are both cars, but somehow most people will pick the F1 over the K car.

plus, its fun to walk onto the field with an emag and show the people not only what a Emag can do, but show them that a gun that is older than a majority of the players can keep up with nothing more than what it started with.

my opinion is to not make excuses for my equipment.

i love mags, cockers, and other terrible guns ... because they are terrible. all the fun that is shooting a classic gun, is because it isn't as good as a modern one. the more we embrace that classic guns are worse, and thats why they are more fun, the better off we will be as a community. the longer we play the appologist game, and continue despite all evidence to contrary that classic guns are "just as good" we doom ourselves, and these great guns, and this great history, to the history books.

credentials:

my collection at one point:



shooting my RT classic at living legends this year:



shooting my karni at living legends last year:



shooting my merlin at local big game:



Angel LCD 2k3 special edition (love this gun):



Epic (really fun gun, sad i sold it):



start ****?

i merely see classic guns for what they actually are. and love them because of it.

[cockerpunk]

People think of a switch pull as a digital 1 or 0. This is not the case. Software can and does set a threshold for the voltage pull at which a signal is considered a 1 or a 0. Example: the micro controller I used to set up my switch listener defaults to 1.5v on a 5v (in actuality a 3.5v) pin. Above 1.5v and it is considered a 1, below, a 0. To date, every electro I have tested (15 so far) reports more signals to the solenoid than signals from the switch. They achieve this by lowering the threshold during higher rates of fire. This listens for switch noise and reports false signals. Further, they all hold multiple shots in queue during high rof. Further they all average out the signals to produce a consistent rof. The last part is IMO a necessity preventing human control interfering with the markers mechanical limitations. The end result is markers that fire more than you pull the trigger, fire when you are not pulling the trigger, and fire only when all of the markers systems are prepared to do so. No need to learn the trigger, software does it for you.

Modern electros do not read trigger pulls to shoot. They read trigger pulls to learn the intent of the shooter so they can handle the dirty work. I can and have proven this. I'm not sharing my results (because the only industry entity that I brought this up to threatened to sue me and I simply don't care enough [and can't afford] to take it that far). I did the testing to validate my theories for my own purposes. If you would like to test it as well I can tell you how. post it.

Further, you don't need empirical data. Logic alone will tell you that "cheating" is the inevitable result of competition among electronic marker manufacturers. It costs tens of thousands of dollars to R&D a new valve/bolt system. It costs about 10 seconds worth of man hours to program your boards to lower the voltage threshold during X cps. And nobody will bust them because the "pro" leagues are owned by the industry. Low cost improvement with zero chance of backlash. Who wouldn't do it?

As far as the RT thing goes. A "response trigger" does what you are talking about. A "runaway trigger" such as a heavily shimmed ULT will shot itself. But a "Reactive Trigger" merely pushes back on your finger. It does not cycle the sear both ways for you. You have to maintain positive pressure against the trigger to cycle it and relax enough between shots to let it push you back. This is 1 pull 1 shot even if it is sickening easy to accomplish. Is it a grey area? Sure. But compared to the egregious cheating being done by the electro's it's nothing.

Bloopers: Yes. In some cases (particularly with a tight bore fit) the shot that chuffed does not even make it out of the barrel at all.

don't all triggering systems mechanical or otherwise interpret the intent of the shooter, and then do the dirty work of shooting for them? isnt a trigger simply a device for indicating to the gun that you want to fire?

not really a technical question, really a philosophical one.

Also, bull **** on the threatened to be sued thing. I have been threatened with being sued by at least 3 different paintball companies, two of them on multiple occasions, and in legal documents. never stopped me from publishing everything i have.

[Patron God of Pirates]

don't all triggering systems mechanical or otherwise interpret the intent of the shooter, and then do the dirty work of shooting for them? isnt a trigger simply a device for indicating to the gun that you want to fire?

not really a technical question, really a philosophical one.

Also, bull **** on the threatened to be sued thing. I have been threatened with being sued by at least 3 different paintball companies, two of them on multiple occasions, and in legal documents. never stopped me from publishing everything i have.

I agree that it is a philisophical question. But if the trigger mechanism is programed to report false signals just because it is detecting that the intent of the shooter is to shoot really fast, should we just abandon the pretense. These guns out shoot the person pulling the trigger.

Your motives in you research are intirely different than mine. I intended too demonstrate that these systems were cheating in order to bring a ic free electronic trigger to market. The company I shared my results with politely reminded me how litigious this industry is. They indicated that it would be less expensive for them to sue me into silence than to fight the suits they would face if they tried to push the product I was offering.by attempting to have current systems declared tourny illegal.

[2xFast]

@MPSD: That looks interesting. How did the CF tube wear over the long term? Was it attached to anything or just trapped between the remnants of the ULE body and the valve?

And that setup clocked in at 2lb even? without a barrel?

**why is "c-l-o-c-k-e-d" censored? Seems a touch aggresive on the nanny software....being as it's a pretty common and benign term in technical circles. ...oh...is it locked that gets the face?

[mpsd]

@MPSD: That looks interesting. How did the CF tube wear over the long term? Was it attached to anything or just trapped between the remnants of the ULE body and the valve?

And that setup clocked in at 2lb even? without a barrel?

**why is "c-l-o-c-k-e-d" censored? Seems a touch aggresive on the nanny software....being as it's a pretty common and benign term in technical circles. ...oh...is it locked that gets the face?

The CF tube is held in place by a small strech of aluminum under it with an o-ring, the front of the original body (which is held by a bolt) and the valve. It's pretty sturdy.

As for the weight, I remember it was really, really close to 2lbs. Maybe just a hint over it as pictured. Note that the CF Deadlywind barrel is super light (like a couple ounces). The AKA feedneck and the DW ASA are ridiculously light as well, even though the NDZ ASA would be a hint lighter.

[GoatBoy]

I wonder if a large chunk of this discussion could be avoided if you guys just decided to stop thinking in terms of "classic" vs whatever.

Imagine if calling stuff "classic" was meaningless and the idea was purged from all your minds.

What would you have left to discuss?

Overall I'm leaning heavily towards Emag. I'm never going to play competitively...might as well have something funky in my hands right?

I recommend the complete opposite -- buy a completely unremarkable gun and just go ahead and play competitively with it.

Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?



clocked, lol.

[mpsd]

I recommend the complete opposite -- buy a completely unremarkable gun and just go ahead and play competitively with it.

Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?



clocked, lol.

I think he meant he doesn't intend to play a tourney of some sort, like I did when I first mentioned I played the Brazilian PB Cup back in 2006. Just that.

[cockerpunk]

I agree that it is a philisophical question. But if the trigger mechanism is programed to report false signals just because it is detecting that the intent of the shooter is to shoot really fast, should we just abandon the pretense. These guns out shoot the person pulling the trigger.

Your motives in you research are intirely different than mine. I intended too demonstrate that these systems were cheating in order to bring a ic free electronic trigger to market. The company I shared my results with politely reminded me how litigious this industry is. They indicated that it would be less expensive for them to sue me into silence than to fight the suits they would face if they tried to push the product I was offering.by attempting to have current systems declared tourny illegal.

in the days of ramping multiple trigger events are moot.

also, i seem to remember warpig had a great article in 1999 or 2000 on turbo mode, which shows in very much detail exactly what you are describing, nothing new. microswitches bounce, any kind of switch bounces. i guess i simply fail to see why this is a problem with them. and, again, in the days of ramping and full auto, the point it totally and completely moot anyway.

i think this is the warpig article: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/turbo/
and another that displays the same phenomina to jusify rebound mode: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...nerve/rebound/

last link has better pictures

[El Zilcho]

None of my local fields allow ramping or full auto for recreational play. Since that is all I play, I would say that the point may not be "totally and completely moot". As it pertains to tournaments, I agree but to say "totally and completely moot" I don't feel is fair.

[cockerpunk]

None of my local fields allow ramping or full auto for recreational play. Since that is all I play, I would say that the point may not be "totally and completely moot".

do they not have a ROF cap?

[2xFast]

Why *wouldn't* you want to be competitive on the field? Are you mistaking this for some sort of beauty pageant? Are you hoping to be the belle of the ball?

Same reason I play pump I guess. I'm looking for what makes the day more fun, and that's not necessarily the "best" gun. Just something to spice things up.

My motivation in this case is probably a combo of a desire to play with a good RT trigger, and to see if I can actually get an emag below 2lbs.

[El Zilcho]

do they not have a ROF cap?

I have not seen a stated ROF cap nor has a cap ever been verbally communicated to me at any of the fields. They only state semi only, no RT with mechanicals.

[cockerpunk]

I have not seen a stated ROF cap nor has a cap ever been verbally communicated to me at any of the fields. They only state semi only, no RT with mechanicals.

wow, that must be the wild west .... never herd of a place that has no ROF cap ....

the good news is that electronics still does not mean you an inherently cheating, even by pgop2.0's definition. effective use of filtering can easily make them 1 shot per pull.

the trouble you will have (and thus why simple max ROF rules are typically in place), is effective policing of those settings.

[El Zilcho]

wow, that must be the wild west .... never herd of a place that has no ROF cap ....

the good news is that electronics still does not mean you an inherently cheating, even by pgop2.0's definition. effective use of filtering can easily make them 1 shot per pull.

the trouble you will have (and thus why simple max ROF rules are typically in place), is effective policing of those settings.

I really like the idea of anything goes with a ROF cap, it make a lot of sense to me. I actually just contacted one of the fields to see if perhaps there is some rule I am not aware of.

Isn't that pgop2.0s point though, filtering can make them one shot/pull but that filtering is not being implemented.