EMAGs in the real world?

[cockerpunk]

I really like the idea of anything goes with a ROF cap, it make a lot of sense to me. I actually just contacted one of the fields to see if perhaps there is some rule I am not aware of.

Isn't that pgop2.0s point though, filtering can make them one shot/pull but that filtering is not being implemented.

that is by choice of the user however. the gun offers you a legal one shot one pull mode, all of them do. it is up to user to select otherwise.

[El Zilcho]

that is by choice of the user however. the gun offers you a legal one shot one pull mode, all of them do. it is up to user to select otherwise.

I didn't realize that pgop2.0 was referring to any specific modes, I understood the issue as manufacturers are, by default, setting the filtering in a manner that allows for more shots than trigger pulls in semi settings. Not to the degree of one shot 4 balls on your 1st trigger pull but once you are really giving it the business you might get a few extra BPS without technically being in ramping or some other mode.

[cockerpunk]

I didn't realize that pgop2.0 was referring to any specific modes, I understood the issue as manufacturers are, by default, setting the filtering in a manner that allows for more shots than trigger pulls in semi settings. Not to the degree of one shot 4 balls on your 1st trigger pull but once you are really giving it the business you might get a few extra BPS without technically being in ramping or some other mode.

well the issue is switch bouncing, which yes, as far as a i know, every single electronic gun offers a level of switch bounce filtering that will make the gun 1 shot 1 pull.

[Patron God of Pirates]

All of the markers I have tested have effectively scalled back the debounce as the rate of actual trigger pulls increases. These have all been set t(by their owners) to 12bps tourny legal semi.

[Nobody]

wow, that must be the wild west .... never herd of a place that has no ROF cap ....

the good news is that electronics still does not mean you an inherently cheating, even by pgop2.0's definition. effective use of filtering can easily make them 1 shot per pull.

the trouble you will have (and thus why simple max ROF rules are typically in place), is effective policing of those settings.

well when you step out of your hole, there is a lot of fields that do not limit ROF or modes. the West Point Cadets do not have mode or RoF limits, as they see that the more paint that flies, the more money they get from paint sales, which is what the ENTIRE industry was going for in the glory days of who is the fastest wins at the tournaments. more paint equals more money for the manufacturers.

that is still left up to the player to NOT cheat by setting the gun to ramp, to not go FA or other bonus modes that could result in an uncontrollable gun, but most importantly, to have field refs that can not only recognize what those modes are, but will stand up to the players and remove those guns or those players.

also, i can offer up 3 different boards that do not have bounce limits or switch filtering. guess you really need to check your facts before making a statement.

[Frizzle Fry]

Weight is completely subjective. Some people enjoy a heavier or larger gun and play better with one. I have yet to encounter a marker that is so physically heavy or large that a normal-sized person who plays physical sports is going to be so fatigued after carrying it through a game that it would impede on their ability to continue playing. Half of my teammates used to carry around Shocker 4x4s with Shredder 3000s, 114ci tanks and pods galore - nobody pulled any muscles or passed out on the field. I won't deny that to some players a lighter or smaller marker is an advantage, but to others it's a disadvantage.

As for the eyes, I view them as a vestigial piece of gun technology. They came about when electronic markers started outshooting the loaders on the market. In 1999 many tournaments and leagues allowed uncapped semi and capped ramping (anywhere from 9bps to 20bps) but HALO Bs wouldn't be released until 2002 and Revvys just couldn't do it. That's when the garage Angel eye conversions started, Bob Long made the Intimidator with eyes as a standard feature, and very quickly they became a must-have in production markers along with massive stovepipe feednecks which allowed longer bursts of fire. Since then loader technology has grown in leaps and bounds. I've run guns (Angels, Mags, Egos, Matrix) blind at 14bps with agitated (not forcefed) loaders and gone through several cases in a day of play without a chop - the same can be said of many of the guys with whom I play (some with forcefed loaders, others with agitated). That may only be anecdotal evidence, but it's not going to convince me to run around installing eyes on my markers that don't have them currently, or to build a marker around that technology.

I would also argue that "newer is better" rule doesn't hold water. Case in point, I have a Gen 2 Intimidator with about 215,000 shots on the counter, and it's never been rebuilt - it shoots 14bps without chops, gets about 1500 shots off a 68/45, and has a screen which allows for easy mode selection and setting adjustments. I bought a brand new Gen 5 Intimidator (Vice) and it met the basic demands of play by shooting at 14bps and it got a mere 250 more shots off the same tank. The problem was that it was less reliable all around; velocity was less consistent, it developed leaks around the valve frequently, and programing/setup was (relatively) a nightmare. Granted many new markers beat their predecessors but certainly not all of them.

I agree 100% about efficiency, that can be a real disadvantage. Shooting roughly a half a case on a 68/45 is not acceptable for tournament play, and isn't practical for "big games" and events. Granted there are larger tanks and efficiency mods, but that's really a bandaid not a solution, and the latter isn't readily available for all platforms. I only play recreationally now so filling up between games isn't bad, but for events I tend to bring more efficient markers with me because I know that my mags love the fill station and they don't exactly plant them in the middle of the field. I don't believe mags are the be-all end-all, nor do I think they are the best, I just don't believe they're ready to be termed uncompetitive on any grounds other than efficiency.

that is still left up to the player to NOT cheat by setting the gun to ramp, to not go FA or other bonus modes that could result in an uncontrollable gun, but most importantly, to have field refs that can not only recognize what those modes are, but will stand up to the players and remove those guns or those players.

I sold a pile of "Super 7" DM cheater chips that were used in the tournament,code activated. I don't condone cheating but these were slick and made it by the judges, I happened to get my hands on some. They were a simple add-a-shot (early) ramping with a high ROF cap and a discrete activation that would be almost impossible to activate unintentionally.

I also remember a buddies Angel LCD had a high-ROF full-auto mode that sounded like the sort of irregular staccato of a person walking a semi or (old add-a-shot) ramping marker. Again, it was activated discretely, and it's almost impossible to catch. Very sneaky, only ever used for funsies on the recball scene.

also, i can offer up 3 different boards that do not have bounce limits or switch filtering. guess you really need to check your facts before making a statement.

QFT

[athomas]

I use my emag whenever I can. I love it and it gets lots of looks on the field. Its always nice to have something different than everyone else, and it works so well.

I never have had issues with my level 10 since I installed it in both of my mags when it was a beta test. They give me a nice edge on the field, not having to worry about balls getting chopped. I could use any hopper I wanted and tilt my gun at any angle without problems.

The switch/shooting mode issue has been around since electros were in use. The mechanical switch noise is where the extra "trigger pulls" come from. There's always bounce in a mechanical switch. Many of the older guns used a reduction of debounce settings after a few shots so that extra trigger pulls were sensed due to mechanical bounce even when the extra trigger pull really didn't exist. This led to guns that fired much faster than you could physically pull the trigger. Many aftermarket board manufacturers actually made a living exploiting this. Ramping guns being allowed in tournaments actually made it easier to police, since now everyone could use a controlled extra shot feature legally.

[cockerpunk]

well when you step out of your hole, there is a lot of fields that do not limit ROF or modes. the West Point Cadets do not have mode or RoF limits, as they see that the more paint that flies, the more money they get from paint sales, which is what the ENTIRE industry was going for in the glory days of who is the fastest wins at the tournaments. more paint equals more money for the manufacturers.

that is still left up to the player to NOT cheat by setting the gun to ramp, to not go FA or other bonus modes that could result in an uncontrollable gun, but most importantly, to have field refs that can not only recognize what those modes are, but will stand up to the players and remove those guns or those players.

also, i can offer up 3 different boards that do not have bounce limits or switch filtering. guess you really need to check your facts before making a statement.

who does not produce a board without switch filtering, name names please.

because a board without switch filtering will not make a paintball gun work. period. this was actually a problem with getting the original electronic paintball guns work.

[Nobody]

ICD 8200 board - has modes(semi, 3 shot, 6 shot, FA), dwell(6-12MS) and RoF(max 13bps) adjustments
ICD 9300 board - fixed board with no adjustments
WDP LED board - dwell and RoF.

you could even add in the 22 pin 8200 which was fitted to the LCD guns, but that's semantics...

so there's your 3. any other questions?

[BigEvil]

ICD 8200 board - has modes(semi, 3 shot, 6 shot, FA), dwell(6-12MS) and RoF(max 13bps) adjustments
ICD 9300 board - fixed board with no adjustments
WDP LED board - dwell and RoF.

you could even add in the 22 pin 8200 which was fitted to the LCD guns, but that's semantics...

so there's your 3. any other questions?

[cockerpunk]

ICD 8200 board - has modes(semi, 3 shot, 6 shot, FA), dwell(6-12MS) and RoF(max 13bps) adjustments
ICD 9300 board - fixed board with no adjustments
WDP LED board - dwell and RoF.

you could even add in the 22 pin 8200 which was fitted to the LCD guns, but that's semantics...

so there's your 3. any other questions?

all of those boards use switch filtering.

it is inherent in the design of every single paintball gun board. it has to be, because every single trigger event, no matter what ROF, is anywhere between 2 and 5+ trigger events when viewed electronically (sub millisecond is some cases). this means every board, adjustable or not, uses switch filtering to filter out those extra trigger events. this is most often done with a delay, but can be done other ways (low pass etc etc).

it seems you do not understand the electronics we are talking about .... your move.

[El Zilcho]

this means every board, adjustable or not, uses switch filtering to filter out those extra trigger events. this is most often done with a delay, but can be done other ways (low pass etc etc).

What happens if the extra trigger events are not filtered out?

[cockerpunk]

What happens if the extra trigger events are not filtered out?

the signal to the noid will be messed up, and cause the gun to malfunction.

[Spider-TW]

A lot of this is why I like mags. E-mags are mags plus electronics. Instead of "classics" and "old", I'm thinking "mechanical" and "simple". A mag is about as simple as you can get with a regulated marker. That is a lot of the attraction to pumps, but a regulated pump doesn't have much over a mag.

Ever since the hand held chronies have started measuring bps, I haven't had much trouble playing RT at fields, other than having to tune them down. With a single trigger carbon frame, I can do 4 balls at 12 bps out of a gravity loader rather regularly. What's terrible and outdated about that? No lpr, no board, no battery, one screw take-down, single trigger, and still, I have to turn it down. The only thing electronics do for me is to give me the opportunity to play right up against the limit of the rules while giving the field owner some false reason to believe that I am doing so.

[Patron God of Pirates]

the signal to the noid will be messed up, and cause the gun to malfunction.

This would be true in a "dumb"system that transmitted the signal directly to the noid. In modern markers this is not the case. The switch signals are sent to the board logic which determines when the noid signals are sent. The filtering you are referring to (software debounce) is a number in milliseconds that the software is programmed to ignore additional signals after the first. Typically it looks like this:
delay(200);
where 200 is a fixed value. Variable debounce is one of the possible explanations for what I'm seeing (but not the most likely one IMO. Variable debounce looks like this:
int debounce = 200;
//elsewhere in the code we would find something like this
if((millis() - lastTriggerPullMillis) < bounceLoweringThreshhold){
debounce = 50;
}
//elsewhere we would find the debounce statement:
delay(debounce);
In my hastily typed example the software is checking to see how recently the last full switch signal occurred and is lowering the variable integer used to debounce the switch. It would not be much more complicated than than that.

I have reason to believe that (at least in most cases) it is signal thresholding that is the culprit variable. This is irrelevant to the results. BPS second limits actually allow the manufacturers to be more flagrant. What they aught to do is disregard any switch pull that exceeded the cap. What they do instead is say:
if(ROF > 12.5)
ROF = 12.5;

Now the sound signature that used to be a tell tale sign of cheater modes just sounds like the marker firing at the capped rate.

If the "profesional" leagues were serious about enforcing 1 shot 1 pull and the rof cap, they would insist on markers using hardware debounce.