I don't know why but ever since i put my lvl 10 kit into my zgriped shocktech mag valve it acts like a reactor valve. I doesn't act like an rt valve but it it does have a little bounce to it smilliar to a reactor valve. I have no idea why its doin it but im not complanin. Couriosity does have the better of me so can any one explain to me why this is?
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Increased operating pressure, perhaps?"My Jell-O is dying in the audience..."
Merrill Howard Kalin -
yes, its the increased pressure... i too have noticed it! but its harder for me to get a higher ROF
but no more ball breaks!! :) :)
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this is something i was not aware of, anyone else with more info?
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In order to get the mod to work correctly with heavier springs, the pressure driving the bolt forward must increase. This requires one to up the pressure going into the marker and/or turn up the reg in the Mag valve. This higher pressure should put more force on the on/off pin, causing it to return a bit more swiftly and with a bit more force. The problem is that the trigger pull seems to be made heavier in the process. It is possible that once things are worn in, the trigger pull will lighten, but I can't say for sure.
This is an interesting point to note as I believe that Tom said at one point that it should actually lighten the pull (on a mech), yet I have heard only that it is heavier. I wonder what Tom's logic might have been behind this statement."My Jell-O is dying in the audience..."
Merrill Howard KalinComment
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yeah i do remember someone said that level 10 would lighten trigger pull, but if it does make it heavier thats bad news, because i think the trigger is already stiff enough, i don't know if i could stand anything decreasing my ROF moreComment
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so will the reactivness on an RT valve go up too?
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It will lighten the trigger pull from the point of view that there is now less pressure on the sear. But more on the on off. Depending on your velocity the balance may tilt one way or another.Originally posted by AcemanPB
yeah i do remember someone said that level 10 would lighten trigger pull, but if it does make it heavier thats bad news, because i think the trigger is already stiff enough, i don't know if i could stand anything decreasing my ROF moreDid you hear about the new european weapons contracts? France is going to make the wooden sticks Spain making the little white flags
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so the trigger pull well stay about the same?Comment
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It is possible that it may go either way, but it seems to me that every account so far has put it heavier. The added pressure of the pin against the sear seems to result in a force greater than that which is lost from pressure relief on the sear from the face of the bolt being held back with more pressure.
It seems that Mr. Kaye foresaw the needed pressure increase, as he noted previously that the reg would need to be adjusted for the heavier springs. Also, he doesn't seem the type to overlook something such as this. I don't have data on the forces of the spring in relation to the increase of pressure behind the bolt, but it seems that the difference is only lowered slightly. On the other hand, the force on the on/off pin seems to have gone up quite a bit. I can only say seems, and you should keep in mind that perception can be flawed, so don't take my word for it.
Regardless of the aformentioned situations, he still stated that it would relieve some of "weight" of the trigger pull.
I wonder if this was based upon theoretical data, or if Tom had based this on real emprical analysis. If he has found pull to be lighter, perhaps it is something with the setup that most of us are not achieving. Otherwise, may it be that his calculations were inaccurate?
I still believe that the new bolt lip seems to create a bit more friction. I haven't the laboratory equipment to gauge this, but inspection of it reveals it to be a bit sharper than my old bolt. Breaking this in may help, as well as breaking in the springs and o-rings.
As far as reactivity with the RT, I don't think that it will be any different than if you turned your input pressure up without the mod.
Also, it may slow you down a bit. I will not say that every setup will experience this added pull weight. But you may, so keep that in mind. Mine seems to lower my BPS by perhaps 1 ball, maybe less. It does fatigue my finger more quickly, though (although time will alleviate this).
Finally, this is the beta stage. So, the final product may be tuned to the point that forces are different, and pull may not be affected negatively, or may even be affected positively. One must also consider that most responses so far have been for markers set for 285 or so. I am sure that lower velocities WILL lighten pull, but that only applies IF you use those settings.
For now, the word is that pull is heavier."My Jell-O is dying in the audience..."
Merrill Howard KalinComment
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my trigger pull is lighter as the kit said it would be. I'm using the spring that looks like a stock spring. my input pressure is at 750 psi and was at 700 before puttin in the kit. I didn't think 50 psi would make that big of a deffrence or i would have raised it along time ago. as for the rate of fire its about the same but with none of the breaks.
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So we can use this for a trigger finger workout?Originally posted by rx2
It does fatigue my finger more quickly, though (although time will alleviate this).Own: stock '94 original Spyder, Used Nelspot 007, Phantom stock class
"Some of us thought you had gone insane. Verdict still pending on that one."
-Vegeta, aimed at Tom Kaye
Mercury Musings to meself:
If someone takes a paint-gun apart and modifies every scrap of it, does it matter what gun they had in the first place?
No, it does not matter.
Simplicity is proven over technological breakthrough.
Too bad we can't smack sense into everyone. Why, think of how easy learning would be.
Aiming is a good thing.Comment
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I suspect that those with RT's will feel a lighter trigger pull indefinately. The sear takes more force to break than the force of the small diameter on/off assy.
Those with classic valves will tilt either way.Did you hear about the new european weapons contracts? France is going to make the wooden sticks Spain making the little white flagsComment
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Ther are 2 major forces involved in the trigger pull;
For an RT style on off assembly (stepped on/off pin)
1. The on/off pin
The diameter of the pin that is being pulled against is .072. 400 psi in the chamber would translate to 1.63 lbs. If you now run your level 10 at 500 psi (these are just rough chamber pressures, you can figure yours out yourself), that force would now be 2.03 lbs. This number does not effect the reactiveness of the trigger. That is controlled by the input pressure to the gun, which does not effect the trigger "pull".
2. The bolt
In a level 7 bolt (or older) the power piston has a sealing diameter of .250. 400 psi in the chamber would translate to 19.6 lbs. With a level 10 bolt the power piston has a sealing diameter of .172. 500 psi in the chamber (again, these are just rough pressures) would translate to 11.6 lbs.
So, for a level 7 (or older) configuration, there is a total of 21.23 lbs working against the trigger. In a level 10 configuration there is 13.63 lbs. (Note: this is NOT how many lbs it takes to pull the trigger, there are many levers working for you). Going by that logic, the trigger pull should be less with the Level 10.
Your chamber pressure for the level 10 is going to depend on your set up. The stronger the spring, the higher the pressure. The smaller the carrier (higher oring friction), the higher the chamber pressure.Comment
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/me wonders if the sear can now be safely filed down some... or have it come with less of a lip from the factory...
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