Agd? Why Stainless?

[HyperSnyper]

AGD,
Im not venting, but was wondering why a stainless valve construction? Why not an aluminum valve body with stainless powertube (to reduce where from the bolt).

I just picked up my micro without the valve and MAN ITS DAMN LIGHT! I had the air and hopper on and it just seemed so much lighter. If the valve could be redesigned with a lighter metal, then I think are guns would be the lightest out there. Lightest metals followed with the lowest number of moving parts equal a damn nice front runners gun.

Just my $0.02. Laters. "Hyper"

[a_malfunction]

They used Stainless because it is extremely durable. Not a Aluminum is a relatively soft metal, SS on the other hand isn't.

[Miscue]

If I remember correctly, aluminum is more expensive to machine.

[Cha0tic]

miscue, i may be wrong but i remember from the automag video that the SS body is ther hardest part of the mag to machine. i think SS is alot harder to handle. the modular bodies are aluminum because people can mill it to cool designs (and its lighter).

[Miscue]

Eh, sounds good to me. I was kinda guessing really... while we wait for the correct answer...

[steveg]

ah-ha a subject that i actually know something about.
aluminum is much easier to machine than stainless. it
can be cut 4-5 times as fast, sometimes even more.
there are actually several types or grades of aluminum
or stainless. for example has anyone noticed that the air valve and body are not magnetic, but the bolt is.
steel is of course much stronger and durable than aluminum
that alone makes it harder to machine. As well, as Tom mentioned some were else, it "work hardens" .
Another thing that makes stainless hard to machine, is that it is about 20% chromium and about 10% nickle
(for non magnetic stainless) this makes it very gummy, it sticks to the cutting tool. It also can be very stringy,
as the part is turned the cut off material forms a long string of steel. this string does all kinds of nasty things
it can break the tool or ruin the finish on the part.
Aluminum actually acts that way as well but with lots of coolant (a mix of water and synthetic oil)
the gumminess is avoided and the string is weak so it breaks easely.
Stainless is also cut using coolant but it does little to help the gumming or string.
A fairly recent idea is to pump this coolant to the cutting tool at about 1000psi.
this blasts the cut metal away from the part as soon as it is cut.
Back to the original question I think HS has a great idea
the powertube is the only part of the valve that does any mechanical work.
besides the back of the Retro valve is already aluminum, why not the front except the powertube of course.

[magc68]

AGD already made an aluminum valve. its all aluminum with a stainless powertube tip. look at the Jax Warroirs guns. they have this new valve.

http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/prototype/jax_warriors.shtml

[ShinyGuy]

As a machinist I'll elaborate on the differences between materials. Everything Steveg said is correct, however, its not as bad as he makes it out to be. If I'm making a single part stainless can be a pain to work with, but in a production situation it isn't really any worse. With aluminum I can pretty much do whatever I want on the first try. Stainless can require a bit of experimenting to reduce chatter when cutting. The real issue, however, is that steel, and stainless moreso, cuts slower and wears the tooling more than aluminum. This means that a steel part will take longer to make than a comparable aluminum part, making it more expensive.

I think what you're talking about with the high pressure coolant is water-cutting. It involves using jets of water at over 100,000 psi to carve away metal. It is a very cool and relatively new technology that still cost way to much to use for everyday things.

As for why mags are made out of stainless, I don't really know. Maybe to hold the pressure (note that the A.I.R. is rated for 3000psi). Maybe just to be far more durable than it really needs to be. I wouldn't mind having a lighter valve body. I'd be nice if AGD came out with an aluminum valve body, or at least told us if any of the aftermarket ones are within tolerance.

[X-Plosive]

shiny don't forget that the back half of the RT/ReTro valve is aluminum. I thought AGD already made a aluminum valve for the Jax.

[AGD]

We made it out of stainless because that was the best material, period. There is almost nothing that you commonly buy today that is made from stainless except silverware becase it is expensive and it is the best. The difference between the stainless Retro valve and an aluminum/stainless combo is exactly 3 oz. Two 9v batteries weigh 3.2 oz

Having said that I am no longer making things the way I think they should be made, I make them based on what you tell me on this forum. Yes we are making an aluminum valve and mainbody, yes it is lighter. Here is what is going to happen, the field strip screw hole is going to wear out in a couple years no matter if we use helicoils or not. Your valve will be useless and you have to call us up and buy another one. You will probably post here "why didn't they stick with the stainless, it never wore out". It's just like the Superbolt, looks good, works good, doesn't last but that's what you want. FYI it is a known fact for all the manufacturers that aluminum bodied guns don't last much more than a few years of regular use before they wear out of tollerance.

Aluminum valves should be out just after Christmass, look for them first in the Emag Extremes.

AGD

[toymyster]

Tom: One of the reasons I got a 'Mag originally was the stainlass construction! I like buying things once!!! My tools are Sanp-On, and my markers are mags. Please stick with what you have been doing, it works, and keeps working!!!! This is my humble opinion!!! please do not give into the flash and glitz as most gun manufacturers have!!!! Pretty guns are nice to look at, but it's the 'Mag that keeps working time after time!!!!

[X-Plosive]

hmmm well I don't mind an aluminum valve I have to replace every 2 years as long as it is a good bit cheaper. I doubt it will be cheaper though. When you said aluminum main body you were only talking about the modular body, correct?

[ShinyGuy]

hmmm... hadn't thought about the field strip hole. When I said I didn't know why mag were stainless I meant just that. I wasn't saying there wasn't a good reason, just that I didn't know what it was. Now I do.

Please continue to do what's right. I've seen far to many product be far less than they could be because the marketing people or the public designed them rather than the engineers. Listen to the users and use their ideas if they're better than what you already have. But if I have a flawed idea don't give it too me. Tell me what's wrong with it.

It's not my place to tell you how to run your company. I just don't want to see you making bad products because they sell better than good ones.

[AGD]

Don't worry we are still going to make the stainless ones for the other half of the world.

AGD

[the123]

If everyone were to lift a few weights between the weekends, that extra 6 oz. wouldn't seem like a big difference. strong people wouldn't be able to tell that big of a difference.
I like the durablity of AGD parts the way they are now.
The super bolt has a purpose other than to reduce weight, it's to reduce recoil and make the gun steadier in your hand while rapid firing. then making it easier to find that elusive sweet spot.
I will now go to bed and dream of Hybrid mode.