Avalanche Allegedly Caught Cheating and Thrown out of WC

[cphilip]

I personaly feel all the Avalance team and the those direct people on the team should be diss-associated with team play, NPPL Leadership and event involvment and from even sponsoring/playing on team for a year. Tis should be made an example of and REAL quick. End of my comments on it.

I saw way too much cheating this week. My stomach is just qweeezy from what I saw out there...And I had very little time to watch. I also saw one of the supposed professional ref's get arrested for stealing and angel and very many inexperienced refs and a basic disreguard and lack of knowledge for the rules and how to apply them as well. No reffing crew took charge early on.

Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.

I did not see much of these problems in the Collegiate X ball though. Refreshing! More later.

[MagDog68]

Originally posted by cphilip
Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.

I did not see much of these problems in the Collegiate X ball though. Refreshing! More later.

The underlying issue here is the money. These professionals make their money by being the best. To win at the World Cup means big money to these teams and it seems they will stop at nothing to get it. This is the reason you will see so much cheating at that level.

Rec ballers and Collegiate teams play for the love of the game, pros play it because it is a business. I only hope that my children never grow up to be professional babies.

~Fred

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by cphilip
Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.

I totally agree with this. Rec ball whatever keep your hands up. Most of the cussing, screaming, and near fights seem to happen over bonus balling.

I went to Supergame XXIV here in Oregon run by Dan Bonebrake (former Avalanche player and he appears to be a very stand up guy). Before we started playing he explained that his experience has shown that it is generally hard to get 100 people (big game) to all stop shooting at you immediately. So he explained the very common sense method of sticking up your hands and yelling hit multiple times until people half a field away recognize that you are out. Then he explained that sometimes you might be trying to get off the field and walk through a firefight. The people involved are not trying to shoot at you. They are shooting at other people on the field. Anyway the way he explained it people seemed to "get it". No cussing, no near fights, god I wish that every day of paintball was like that!!!!

[SlartyBartFast]

That the rules get pushed is of no surpise. But that someone ahd the gall to snipe from the woods is absolutely disgusting. Seems unlikely that others on the team didn't know what was going on though.

Well, I suppose we can grip all we want about the incident but what is it goig to change? The only way to have things in 'pro' paintball is to hit the organisers in the wallet.

That means bycotting the events and refusing to buy gear from the sponsers of cheating teams.

As for stopping cheating, you have to make the penalties really hurt. You also have to train the refs correctly and then allow them to do their job unhindered.

Seems to me steps have been taken to make reffing a propper occupation separate from playing. As the professional refferees gain experience the level of reffing and consistency of calls should improve.

I for one would love to ref. I'd be willing to pay for any training and courses/practice required, but I'm not going to volunteer my time to babysit others as they compete for money.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by thei3ug

The "sniper" incident happened at other events, and not by avalanche, but nothing was done.

I've been playing paintball for a while and I have NEVER heard of anything like this happeneding before. I have heard of cheating, but not to this ridiculous magnatude. If you have heard of this sort of thing happening then please reveal this information, and I mean names, teams, events, and dates, not just general allegations.



I know that I seem to be coming off a little pugnacious about this, but it's bad enough that this has happened once. If this has happened before, it's beyond disgraceful.

Ogre

[aaron_mag]

Just curious about other tournaments.....

How are the PanAm Tournaments? Do people find that those are better? I've wanted to give one a try (when I find the time).

[cphilip]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Seems to me steps have been taken to make reffing a propper occupation separate from playing. As the professional refferees gain experience the level of reffing and consistency of calls should improve.

I for one would love to ref. I'd be willing to pay for any training and courses/practice required, but I'm not going to volunteer my time to babysit others as they compete for money.

Heard about it but didn't see any evidence of it. Good ones and bad ones were present.

Oh and before I forget...Thank you good ones!

I too tried to ref this event and put in some of my time learning and studying the rules and am unafilliated with any team and was waiting on a call from Bill Cookston and well...no call...and yet I still saw immature kids out there doign it for the $100 a day. So realy I see no real effort to follow through on that. Just an idea is all with no real teeth in it. I say forget the pay for a while and lets see who realy wants to do this job then!

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
...Seems to me steps have been taken to make reffing a propper occupation separate from playing. As the professional refferees gain experience the level of reffing and consistency of calls should improve.

PRO, the Paintball Referree's Org. seems to be giving it only a half-hearted effort. I applied when the website went active long ago and could not get a response. On paper, it seems that I would be the perfect applicant: long-time paintball player (so I know which end of the marker the little round thing comes out); not affiliated with any team (so I do not know or care who the "stars" are); lawyer (so I can presumably understand the rules and remain impartial); and free to travel to one or more tournaments a year. I'm not saying that I am the perfect ref, but if they were really serious about fielding a good pool of officials, oughtn't they at least look at my application?

I think that paintball referreeing as a quasi-voluntary vocation is a long way from being a part of the paintball tournament scene. For now, the ranks of officials will be full of partial fans, tournament players from opposing/affiliated teams and apparent thieves.

Unfortunate.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ben_JD
...I applied when the website went active long ago and could not get a response. On paper, it seems that I would be the perfect applicant...

Same here Ben! and not much interest!!! Seemed to me it was a lot of "who you knows" out there sprinkled with a few "you and me's" that should have been out there. Just my take on it is they are not serious about disturbing the "good old boy" network already established. And I suspect its a matter of comfort level. the thinking is that I can call these few guys they will get soem guys to show up. I suspect "showing up" is the most important thing now rather than maturity and knowledge of the rules. Thats what I see anyway.

I think its few people getting a call something like "get me some warm bodies out there" so I can go onto something else...

[demonguy8]

Originally posted by cphilip
I did not see much of these problems in the Collegiate X ball though. Refreshing!

As it was explained to me just after our tournament (ISU's invite at Realms of Ruin), the college leauge doesnt have the same problems with cheating because it while the nppl appears to go by the saying "im still in till the ref sees it" while the college tournaments seem to go by the rule "see it or not, if your shooting with a hit you ARE PLAYING ON and YOUR TEAMATES ARE BEING PULLED". This puts quite a bit more responsibility on the player to check himself than for the ref to try and see every inch of two or more players.

imho this makes for MUCH cleaner play and is an example the nppl should take.. in this specific case however, I would make jeremy pay the entry + paint of the ENTIRE AVALANCHE TEAM for the game, in addition to a fine to be paid to the nppl, a fine to be paid to GZ, give the marker he used away as a door prize, and the penalties he is already facing (kicked from the team, one year ban)

-a VERY serious penalty for a VERY serious offense..

[Nick1Shot]

They should try

The Ultimate Ref should have a yellow flag like in the NFL. He can throw his flag for unsportsmanlike conduct. The problem I see right now and what separates paintball from other sports, is no respect for the officiating...at all. Something needs to be done so that Officials can gain that respect. They need to start taking care of business. If you get a flag for UC, then it could be assessed AFTER the game. Dock the team 15-25 points for getting in a ref's face, or inciting a fight with an opponent, or for not staying in the deadbox. Can you imagine how much that would change the outcame of these pro games if they lost points for cussing out a ref?

That's elementary.

Nick_OSPM

[rudy]

haha thats so funny, btw its a really stupid act which makes you think maybe he wanted to get caught, at any rate dont worry folks olympic almost all pro sports in america people are still cheating you just have to do what you can to stop it, although i dont know if anyones cheating is that stupid. right now its just mostly drug related cheating soon it will be gene therapy and what not.

[Troy]

To demonguy8: NPPL ref should be reffing the games just like you say the college refs do. I'm not saying they all do but that is the way they are supposed to ref it.

The problem in this game was a guy shooting from the woods. He wasn't playing on, or cussing a ref out.

As for the PRO reffs. Bill has limited funds to work with. It would be great if the entire NPPL was reffed by PRO. Don't you think the teams that ref would rather be playing. The NPPL seems to progress at a snails pace. They just came out of the woods last year.

[thei3ug]

Elementary? Summaries certainly are. It just seemed that people were so adamant about chastising Ed and the Avalanche crew without giving thought to the mentality that has arisen in professional and some amateur play. And that maybe, just maybe what they did isn't so outrageous and unheard of.

The sniper incident reminded me specifically of the incident involving Aftershock and the All A's in 1999, where a player appeared behind the All A's with their flag. There was one other incident where two players did hide with other jerseys and guns, and disposed of the evidence.

No one but me seems to think it was cheating when the All Americans went on the field with "turbo" in 1998 (a fancy word for "burst") markers without telling anyone. Not only that, they used their weight to allow them to continue to use it.

How about the skyball "deadbox" incident? OR when a player decided to bean a ref. Same player who tackled one earlier. He got fined.

Heck, Dynasty won last year only after they found a player on the opposing team playing on.

I picked the "high profile" ones. I could give you a ten page list of things the people you think are supposed to be honorable did.

Even the PRO refs have problems. So much stock is being put into how PRO needs to make more effort for an unbiased reffing system. Well what about the PRO ref that is being brought up on charges for trying to steal from a vendors booth? THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Not even an orange shirt is going to make you infalliable.

I am not here to say all Pros cheat, we should get over it. Or all Pros cheat, they suck. I play Am, and I know we have the same problems. But I do know that just because you're on a team that says they do not cheat doesn't mean they don't.

Case in point, Saberwolves at the 2001 National Indoors. A team that prides itself on fair play found a player, unbeknownst to them, playing on in a manner that could have affected who got into the finals. That player was canned. The saberwolves got the sportsmanship award (i think my team deserved it better, but oh well).

Cheating can take two routes. An institutional doctrine, either implied or specific, OR an individual choice. When I say all pro teams cheat, it isn't always a tactic. Sometimes a player will think it unjust that he got hit a certain way. No matter how the team feels about it, supportive or no, that team has just cheated, and the wholes team is penalized.

It is similar to the sociology of a company. Sometimes you are "forced" to cheat by pressure from above. Sometimes you're told. Sometimes you're not, but you know it's what they want you to do. But no matter what, we shouldn't single out Avalanche as a pariah in the pro world. If we do to avalanche what you all claim should be done, in retrospect it is unjust. And in the future it will be difficult for a team to keep players, and for teams to stay in the circut every year.

[shartley]

Great points.

Also folks must keep in mind that ALL sports have "cheating" to some degree, and most of it is not malicious.

The difference is that other sports have developed penalties that fit the offense. Also because of this, often times the "offense" is used as part of a winning strategy.... fouls, etc. I don't need to get into them all, but I think most understand what I am saying.

However, some "cheating" is above and beyond normal play. And when THAT happens, it is time to bring the hammer down. What happened this time was not even close to normal "cheating" due to game pressures or acceptable strategies. I think we all expect the pushing of rules to gain an advantage, or creative interpretation of rules for the same purpose.... again, this issue is something totally different.

Yes, all sports teams have players that cheat, or break the rules, it is how these things are handled that set the Sports and Levels of those Sports apart. And that does include Reffing, and overall organization of the sports/levels.

I too remember when the Paintball Reffing Org folks started up, and I decided to sit back and not comment (for once)... all the time thinking that it would fall flat on its face.... well, it hasn't even done that.... from what I have seen, it hasn't gotten high enough for "fall" anywhere.

It shouldn't be too darn hard.. heck, my Son's soccer games had "patched" Refs for crying out loud, and that was for JR High Games. It gives a good incentive to Ref correctly, and that leads to being PAID to do so. And if the Ref did not do their jobs correctly, you have a place to go and complain.... if warranted, they lose their "patch"... thus losing their "face" and ability to make money Reffing games.

And I have seen Teenagers on up, being "patched" Refs. As long as you attend the training, and pass all the tests, then do your JOB, you remain "patched". Pretty simple.

It would also lend credibility to events... do you have Patched Refs, or not? It would not eliminate NON-Patched reffing for smaller events, or normal play.... but would take care of a lot of the crap we now see at the larger events and tournaments.

[/ref talk]

Must stop for now... too busy....