PC insanity at DDay game...

[Trench_Riader]

I'm sure you have all heard about the big DDay event in Oklahoma that was featured in both APG and "Paintball". You can find the site for said event at:

http://www.oklahomadday.com/

Some folks in my local group are quite fired up about attending that event.
As a WW2 buff/reenactor I have been seriously considering it as well.

However I am more than a little bit anoyed at the policy change slated for
the 2003 event. It seems that the organizers have decided to ban all
"Swastikas, SS runes, and other Nazi iconography" at this event. As stated
above, I'm a reenactor and my German uniform would be a serious contendor
for the "Best costume" award. However, this change would require me to
remove or cover up the runes on my collar and the eagle on my sleave, not to
mention leave off just about every medal and decoration.

In my mind this policy change is catering to the PC crowd to a sickening
degree. Anyone who comes to a WW2 themed event and is offended by the sight
of Nazi iconography is :
a>too sensitive
b>naive
c>an idiot
or
d>All of the above.

But in the final analysis it is a privately owned site and a they have the
right to set whatever rules they want, however misguided. I just wonder if
they are are going to ban Allied insignia just to be fair.... ;-p

I'll probably still be going, but will wear my SS reversible camo smock and
helmet cover without any visible collar tabs, sleave eagles, or helmet
decals.

"Trench Raider"

[personman]

I'll probally go, I'm usually in Oklahoma around that time of year, even though her house is 5 hours away from wyandotte.. lol.
If I go I'll probally wear a T-shirt or something, and shorts.. by then I will have my beautiful E-mag..
My class just finished reading Night by Elie Wiesel, and we have gone to a Holocaust museam and stuff, and I'm not offended by any symbols, for one.
I dont agree with them banning the symbols, at all.
It seems rather stupid, I mean if you want to go to a world war two reinactment, you should expect the symbols and not be offended by them.
On a side note I dont know what side I will be on, nor do I care.. but it does look fun and I really wanted to go to D-Day 2002, but my mom wouldnt let me because of school grades

[spazzed]

I hate PC. I don't wanna get started on this because I'll get myself banned.

[oldsoldier]

Well, they should be allowed to be used for re-enactments and the like. when it comes to using them as rascist, then its a problem. But, reenactments are really rascist...they are what was used during that time. Sometimes people use PC as a liscence to sensor whatever they want...maybe everyone should wear asthetically pleasing colors,and hand out flowers instead of shoot each other? blah....

[Webmaster]

Well here is my thing - and I thought about this about a year ago.

I have attended a D-Day and had a great time. And I am the first one to enjoy pretending.

The problem is maybe some of the scars are a bit too fresh. I mean- my mother-in-law is polish, and she was horribly opressed by the Nazi invasion. Her father fought in the Polish Underground Movement - against both the Nazis and the Communists. He was gone for months at a time, and was captured and escaped twice.

I dont think she would like to see anyone in full SS garb at a paintball event - or anywhere quite frankly.

It goes beyond just the Nazi iconography. Why doesnt the Japanesse "rising sun" flag and symbols raise quite the ire that the swastika does? I would have to say that is because both the SS runes and the Swastika are still used today by various hate and supremesist wacko groups. The symbols are still used and associated with bad things and are not just an artifact from a bygone era.

So - Like I said - I like to dress up too. I love going to the ren fair - and although I live in the midwest, I think a Revolutionary war or maybe even a civil war re-enactment would be neat to partake in.

But unlike any of those examples - we still have people liveing and breathing who witnessed the horrors of WWII. I am sure there were much fresher wounds after the revolutionary war too - and british flags etc would have gotten you beaten or but in the stocks.

One question I do have - and this isnt a flame - but why would you want to re-enact/imitate and German SS officer? I suppose there is a sort of admiration for the well oiled werhmacht - but its kind of creepy the devotion and level of admiration some people have. I was just wondering what your motivation was - and why you would rather re-enact them rather than say a US Ranger from the era.

Id just like to say again - that I dont think its all just PC - or peopel being stupid, or niave. I think for some its just too soon to see a group of people running around with swastikas on them.

PS - There is a GREAT book out there (the name escapes me) on the history of the swastika. It TRUELY is one of the oldest symbol in the world. It was widely used in nearly every culter around the globe - and it was generally a symbol of luck, peace, and goodwill. Navahos used to use it in ther blanket designs. India still uses it today as a luck symbol. It was popular in the 20s in europe and america as an art deco ornament. Its very interesting how such and old and postiive symbol is not forever associtated with the nazi party.

[oldsoldier]

Webby, I both agree and disagree. The average German soldier was proud to serve his country; same as any other soldier. And, the SS division that ran the concentration camps were shunned by the rest of the SS. Dont forget, there were 4 separate SS divisions. Only one of them were the feared Secret Police. The other three were a Panzer-grenadier division, and 2 panzer divisions. Towards the end of the war, they began instituting more SS divisions; but they consisted of mostly old men and kids. They werent the cream of the crop. These later divisions were also shunned by the other SS divisions.
Also, the concentration camps were normally guarded by regular wermacht soldiers recovering from wounds and waiting to go back to the war. Common knowledge history can be very misleading.
A good book I just finished on the daily life of the german soldier is called Infantry Aces. It is basically about the winners of the Knights Cross. It provides a different insight into their lives.
I am in no way defending what happened during WWII. The Nazi ideology was cruel and inhumane. No one can argue otherwise. I just think that most people dont realize that the average soldier was proud to serve, and, for the most part, wasnt aware of the Nazi internment camps.
And, if you think they were cruel, you really need to read up on the Russians in WWII. They showed no mercy at all. They were, in many ways, worse than the Japanese at that time.

[FutureMagOwner]

yeah webby my 8th grade teacher(a real cool guy that everyone thought was a huge version of stone cold steve austin) taught us that it was quite fascinating to learn

[SlartyBartFast]

Honestly, how does a paintball game re-enact the horror that was WWII?
What, if anything, does calling one team the allies and the other the Germans add to a paintball game that red vs. blue doesn't have?

[oldsoldier]

slarty, hopefully, people will look into what actually took place during the time period. Traditional reenactments teach us about history. Ask the reenactors about anything during that time period; guarantee they eill know. We have alot of civil war reenactments here; these guys know everything about the regiment they chose; its history, who belonged, the battles; all that. I personally dont care if the paintball community decides to do reenactments. I DO care that they call it a reenactment, then limit you in your costume choices. Then it isnt technically a reenactment, it is a dress up period paintball game.

EDIT: Webby, I know the book you are talking about! I had it, but my ex took it when she left. It was crowded in with a bunch of other Nordic mythology stuff...

[shartley]

[Trench_Riader]

My, I opened up a can of worms....

Webmaster----My condolances regarding your relatives. Let me say that I do not in any way apologize for or condone the crimes of the Nazi state.

Having said this, in a historical themed event (even one that just plays lip-service to history like the DDay scenario game) someone has to play the "bad guys" of history. Doing so does not glorify or show acceptance for the ideals or crimes of the Nazi state. In such events small details like uniform insignia add much to the "flavor". As I pointed out on another forum, EVERY German fighting man in all four branches of the military wore a swastika and banning them simply offends the eye of the historian.

Why will I play on the German side at the DDay game? Primarily because I'm a WW2 reenactor and already have much of the equipment and uniform items I will need. It's not a political statement.

having said this, perhaps the ban should be on "non-historical usage" of Nazi iconography. Even I would be irritated to see someone attending the event wearing a Party armband or t-shirt bearing a swastika.

Oldsoldier----Minor point: there were 38 Waffen SS units of (nominally at least as some never reached full strength) division size. Of these 7 were panzer divisions. More to the point of this thread, over a dozen Waffen SS units of at least battalion strength fought at Normandy between June and August 1944. It should also be noted there is a HUGE difference between the Waffen SS, more or less just elite military units, and the para-military forces that carried out the "final solution" and other major crimes of the Nazi State.

"Trench Raider"
WW2 buff

[b0ned0me]

People need to get a grip on reality...

One of the reasons the whole WW2 german renactment thing is popular is because the uniforms were so damn cool. The 'iconography' is just that - they introduced the crosses, runes, eagles, daggers etc. for visual appeal and psychological effect. Most allied uniforms either look like something out of a WW1 museum or a clearance lot from a khaki factory. Same thing with Dart Vader, Imperial Stormtroopers etc.

I'm Norwegian - my uncle ended up as a slave labourer building electricity dams in the arctic for the duration and my dad and grandparents didn't exactly have a fun time either, but I have no problems with people dressing up in the gear (I suspect my uncle might feel differently).

It's when they start taking the politics and behaviour on board as well that I feel an urgent need to supress their freedom of speech with a 12-gauge, which actually makes me a fascist too. Life is full of contradictions...

[LittMag]

I must disagree, granted it's just a costume, but how many people know someone or were personally affected by the Nazis. I understand not every Nazi were the one's who ran the camps etc etc. BUT they did support a regime which strived to erradicated essentially everyone who was not like them. By wearing their logos, icons it *seems* as though you are supporting them. There are many many people who are offended by the sight of these logos, the attrocities committed and associated by these logos are very real and recent. IMO this is hardly taking PC too far.

[SlartyBartFast]

Personally, I have no problem with re-enactments. Because in the re-enactment the outcome is the same as the original. A re-enactment will honor those that perished in the real event by being as accurate as possible. A re-enactment will teach those participating and those watching the lessons to be learned from the original events.

Paintball scenarios are not re-enactments. They are making true, nasty periods of history into fun games.

I think when the ONLY reason to do something is for the FUN of it, you shouldn't be calling it a re-enactment and it shouldn't borrow from periods of history where real men and women really died and suffered.

Like I asked in my first post WHAT does the DDay name bring to the paintball experience that isn't conveyed with red vs. blue? If you can name something, then what does paintball bring to the event to honor the original?

True re-enactment should follow and honor the original. Not just steal the names and places for the hell of it.

Paintball does not deserve the right to appropriate history for the sake of amusement. Paintball does not live up to any of the standards above.

[oldsoldier]

No offense, but, if you feel it is too touchy a subject, they should not do it at all. Again, the Germans werent the only ones who commited atrocities; they were defeated, and it was brought to light. The Russians were FAR crueller to their own people...look at the siege of stalingrad. The Russians sent human waves of soldiers into a maelstrom of withering machine gun fire...all without weapons! The idea was that they would combat the germans hand to hand, and steal theirs. Does that sound sane? Again, I am not saying that what went on there was right; far from it. However, I dont believe the symbols, and the folks that wear them at reenactments, personally embody the Nazi "final solution" ideas. Granted, there may be a few cases of people who agreed with Hitler's ideals, but, for the most part, most of them are there for the reenactment. Not to spread nazi-ism. The whole PC thing is beginning to look like McCarthyism...a witch hunt for something that doesnt exist.
Trenchraider; they started off with only 4 SS divisions. They were later expanded, as more people were needed. They were of a lesser wuality of soldiers; but they preserved the mythical stature of an SS soldier. I am aware that, in the end, there were 20-something divisions. The divisions got smaller, more like regimental strength, as the war went on. It looked better to say " I am sending in 5 divisions", than saying "here's a couple of regiments". On paper, it looks like a larger force than it actually is.
And, the SS divisions kept splitting up; especially when they began allowing "non purebloods" into the ranks. The older SS commanders didnt want these troops, so, they were formed into separate divisions. There were at least 3 Polish divisions, an Italian one (maybe two), and numerous "indigeneous" ones, thats all I can think of off the top of my head. BTW...good to see someone else understands world history!!