too honest?

[Fred]

there is a very simple solution you know...

don't play traditional tourney ball, I have a ton of fun with just rec-speedball, normal woodsball, and scenario games.

the emphasis on winners, losers, who's cheating and who isn't getting caught cheating just makes for a lot of bad blood.

If your team can't decide on if they can make it in tournies without sacrificing your integrity, i'd venture to say that you, and the sport would be better off if you didn't play them.

just my .02

---Fred

[hitech]

Re: too honest?

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L
...the top pro/am teams are all whipers....Is it worth trying? Just succumb to the dishonesty and stoop to their level to get ahead?...It seems to me that it is becoming progressively worse.

It does seem that it has gotten worse, not better. Part of the problem is the rules. Allowing a player to continue playing until he determines if a hit actually broke is asking for trouble. MAKE THE PLAYERS RESPONSIBLE. If it were ALWAYS a penalty when you played on after a hit, NO MATTER WHERE YOU WERE HIT, things would change. I'm sure of this as Jim Lively's rules changed to that and it made a difference. However, none of that has anything to do with what you asked.

One problem is determining what is cheating. In my very first tournament (in the '80s) I quickly learned that you did NOT call yourself out for anything less than an obvious hit. Was that cheating? Based on today's NLLP rules, it's almost the same. It creates a very fine line between pushing the rules and cheating.

Another problem is how can you beat another team when they get second chances because they wipe. Well, unless you want to cheat also, you have to be that much better than them. Or, work to change the system to minimize the cheating. I'm not so sure which is more difficult.

[hitech]

Originally posted by dre1919
I prefer knowing that if I'm better on that day than the other team, we win...if we aren't we lose.

But the problem is that is incorrect. You can be the better team that day, but if the other guys are effective at cheating, you lose. That is the problem. To combat cheating, you have to be BETTER just to be EVEN. The biggest problem is that the best solution is not in "your" direct control. Minimize the cheating.

[BTAutoMag]

i have only wiped once and thats when i knew the other guy (1on1) had done it at least 5 times during the game. i got hit in the hopper while running to bunker him because i was getting so frusturated, so i wped it on my side as i swung my gun down by my side, all casual like, and lit him up so badly that he earned the nickname blue that day. latter the same nickname was put on another guy but not from anyfault of mine

[Xerces]

i don't think ill ever play any big tournaments, i just think casual/walk-on play is fun enough. i feel that if enough people (that are good enough to beat the cheaters fair) make it clear to everyone how strongly they feel about it then all the lemmings that think whatever the top teams do is the 'cool' thing to do, they will folow their example.

[HoppysMag]

I agree, Honesty above all else. last year i decided to make that my life creed... if i were to die tommorow atleast i could say i was honest.

[Me]

winning isnt as enjoyable if you kno you cheated. this isnt like highschool

[FatMan]

Consider this:

In basketball, often it is accepted strategy to foul, to stop the clock. There is a penalty, and play continues.

One could argue that a team can play the odds and say - if you think you can get away with it and affect the game in our favor, its worth the risk.

The question is - is that what we want paintball to be? Personnally, I say no. But then, I'm not really playing the tourney scene any more.

Clearly, when you talk to those who write the rules and try to enforce them, the intent is that any form of playing on is considered an unacceptable foul. But then again there is the problem that it IS possible to take a hit and not know it.

Properly used, the NPPL rules are in fact, very strict on what is an unobvious hit. An unobvious hit cannot be seen OR FELT. Getting hit square in the back is NOT an unobvious hit. Ref are supposed to look for a reaction to a hit NO MATTER WHERE IT IS. A welt under a hit, no matter where it is is playing on.

One may argue that the penalty for playing on isn't enough to make it clear how serious an offense it is. Currently its 1-for-1. In 5-man that's pretty heavy, but in 10-man its not quite as bad.

No matter the rules or the penalties, though, the refs have to be taught how to call that. One of the biggest problems in paintball is that most ppl think anyone who has played paintball can be a ref. In fact, most players CAN be a ref, but only if they are properly taught and supervised.

In the mean time, teams like the one in question should learn to do the right thing. If you are out, call yourself and get off the field BEFORE the ref even gets there. You might loose a few more games for a while, but you might pick up some sportsmanship awards. Either way, once your skills and teamwork develop, you won't need cheating to be winners.

FatMan

[hitech]

Originally posted by FatMan
...But then again there is the problem that it IS possible to take a hit and not know it.

It is POSSIBLE, but I claim that it happens very, very infrequently. You may not know if it broke, but you know that a paintball hit you. I'm trying to remember a time when I was hit in a tournament and had NO IDEA that I was hit. None come to mind. The problem with the NPPL rules is that it leaves WAY too much up to the discretion of the refs. Make the players responsible for calling themselves out when hit. If they play on with ANY hit, they are penalized. You can have greater penalties for an obvious hit, but it should ALWAYS be a penalty. Sure, every once in a GREAT while someone will be penalized when they did not deserve it. However, far more people are being penalized today when they don't deserve it. It takes the form of losing the game because someone played on. And losing the game is a pretty stiff penalty.

BTW, you make many good points that I agree with. I don't want paintball to become a what can I get away with. Good points.

[Cypres0099]

My team and I know the value of playing fair, and we just played our first tourney as a team. We won without any cheating.

I talked to a ref afterwards and he said that he saw quite a bit of cheating throughout the day. Whether he called it or not I don't know.

He has also reffed many major events and played with several pro-teams. He told me to try to name a team that he hadn't seen cheating. Every team I named he had an instance where they had... The last one I asked was Avalanche; he just laughed and walked away. I wonder why...

[fuzzyolary]

"too honest?"

If I follow the logic as established in the first message of this thread, eventually (probably soon) the "World Champions" could most accurately be described as the 'best cheaters in the sport'.

Personally, I'd rather not have to strive to attain that goal. That really wouldn't be much fun. It also seems like a whole lot of time and effort to put into something that I would try and conceal from my Mother. . . . and I'm 44.

Think about it. I'll bet you feel the same way.

In order to expand as human beings we need to be open to consideration of ~all~ perspectives. You can not be looked down on for asking the questions you have posed, they are legitimate. But in this case, from what I can see in your FIRST message you already have your own answers. Just accept them.

[BTAutoMag]

if youre hit in the pack or the side of the gun i sometimes dont notice it

[Brak]

my friend wiped like 5 times at an OUTLAW WOODSBALL (who the hell cheats in an outlaw game in the woods?) game we played. after he told me im like "man call yourself out thats stupid", and he told me how hes getting ready for tourneys because in tourneys "to win, you have to wipe". i thinks thats crap and if your good enough a player you have no need to wipe

[einhander619]

Well, it looks like I'm the first guy to admit it, but yeah, I wipe every once in a while, but only under strict conditions. First, I'll never wipe in a tourney, or a 1 on 1, or any other contest. I agree with all of you, that kind of behavior takes paintball back to the stone ages. If you can't do it honorably, don't compete. Now, the only time I wipe is playing recball with buddies, when somehow I get hit right(and I mean like one, maybe two seconds) off the break. Honestly, I'm there to have fun, and having fun means actually playing paintball. If anyone has a huge problem with this, look at it this way: I'm giving people an opportunity to beat me with skill, and not just an errant shot!

[RamboPreacher]

bah...
getting shot off the break is part of the game! As a matter of fact, at the field I play at, I may spend a half a hopper, long balling to the other side, in hopes of hitting someone off the break. Yes it happens and yes, it is a lucky shot, rewquiring no skill, but it is a "tactic" and it is a hit.