E-Mag Trigger "Illegal setup and I couldnt fix it"

[E==Mag MAN]

Okay heres the deal, This weekend I played a small 3man tourament at pevs. Well I am going to explain this the best I can without jumbling it.

My emag DQ'ed because of trigger bounce. Thats what they called it. My trigger wasn't tuned to short or crossing the line into run away. Well no matter how I adjusted my emag trigger one and only one ref could get it to shoot 2 shots with one pull. I tried to explain that if you hold the emag trigger in the activation area long enough it will shoot again. Two of the refs explained to me that they knew exactly what I was trying to say because that they had been kicked out of a nppl event because of their so called trigger bounce. Now I was MAD I wasnt using my gun in rt mode cause I just can't shoot that trigger. I was able to borrow a timmy and finish out the day. Good thing because we placed.

Now I don't know how many of you know this but if you hold your emag trigger right in the area of activation then it will just go full auto no matter how you have your trigger adjusted. So to me theoretically no matter how you have your trigger adjusted you can get 2 shots or more if you pull it slow enough and hold it there. This ref abviously knew how to. So how am I going to fix this. I am not even going to be using my gun at IAO because I dont want to get DQ'ed for this crap. Its coming by the agd booth and they will be tuning it for me. However a teammate had his trigger adjusted by agd techs and I could make it do everything I mentioned above. So my question is how do I get around this...

[sniper1rfa]

set the gun in e-mode and then take the little handle thingy off...

[cphilip]

Well it does sound like your HES is firing off more than once in the proximity of the trigger magnet. I would have to play with it. But I think its adjusted a little too far out. Just a hair. Oddly enough if they are so close to the HES but just far enough you could pull the trigger to the side and it would reset the HES without the trigger having to go all the way forward to shoot again. I suspect thats the problem you were having. You have to adjust the trigger magnet to the right spot CLOSE enough so it does not lose contact with the HES even pulled to the side. Because if the HES even for a brief period does not sense the trigger magnet it resets for another shot. And do if you let a little of that side pressure off it shoots again. Its a very fine line between right and wrong. I am pretty sure I could adjust that out but it would take some playing with it to do it. And I would be moving it a tad closer to get it. And pulling it to the sides to see if it can still stay in contact with the HES. Another thing to do is to shim all the side to side play out of the trigger but thats not completely nessicary with a stock trigger. Most often it can be adjusted out with the magnet itself.

So what I am trying to say here is multiple shots while holing the trigger back in E modes is not the "Bounce" issue. Its a HES activation issue. Same result but different cause. And if it cannot be adjusted out with the magnet we have to look at the HES as well. But most often it can be adjusted out but its a very TINY turn between right and wrong. It would be hard to do under duress and in a hurry.

Improper distance of the magnet can also cause a no fire and in that case its more often too close and does not reset the HES. Your symptoms make me think it was a tiny bit too far away.

One tip: when adjusting a mag trigger in E mode you have to also test it by pulling the trigger to both sides as you shoot to make sure its not fireing again or failing to fire at all when the trigger is pulled over to each side. That most people do not check this when they set thier triggers. And then you test that same thing in M mode as well. It should shoot in the middle of the trigger swing. The correct spot is where it will not do this double shooting or even missed shots while held back and pulled to each of the sides. And it takes very little turn between right and wrong. Its very critical and takes some time to get that right.

[Star_Base_CGI]

There must be a magnetic switch in there somewhere. My best guess is that the little metal contact bounces when there is barely enough Magnetic force to hold it.

I assume Tom wanted to use that in order to reduce damage that would be caused by oxidation. Since that switch is probably sealed in Glass. He builds everything to last forever.

I think the best way to cause a trigger bounce would be to pull the trigger just close enough to fire it and hold it there.

Sorry Just speculating as to what is causing the bounce. I think some people have said you can add or remove additional magnets.

[lamby]

Re: E-Mag Trigger "Illegal setup and I couldnt fix it"

Originally posted by E==Mag MAN
Well no matter how I adjusted my emag trigger one and only one ref could get it to shoot 2 shots with one pull.

Well, you were bitten too. you might be able to adjust it and make your trigger suck (in your eyes) or you can buy another marker. Join the club read my post at:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89225&highlight=psp+chicago

another unsatisfied customer in my eyes.. I still think emags in thier current setup are NOT TOURNEY LEGAL

Buy another marker if you want to play at the higher tourney levels and not be messed with. That is all I can suggest. I think the the RT valve that AGD uses for the E/Xmags will be banned this time next year anyway. There is too much controversy around them, and the E/Xmags do not perform as caimed anyway.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
There must be a magnetic switch in there somewhere.

HES = Hall Effect Sensor. Yes... its the switch.

Sorry Just speculating as to what is causing the bounce. I think some people have said you can add or remove additional magnets.

Nope. Top trigger magnets removed or replaced only change the pull weight. Not the proximity of the Trigger magnet to the HES. And that I just explained is the crutial distance. And what he is telling me from what I can see is he was not getting "bounce" but multiple fire from mulitple triggering of the HES by the Trigger magnet. And that all spells adjustment. Most likely from side to side slop that he didn't have it adjusted to account for. The distance between right and wrong here is 1/4 turn or even less.

Don't speculate. Know...

[cphilip]

Re: Re: E-Mag Trigger "Illegal setup and I couldnt fix it"

Originally posted by lamby


Well, you were bitten too. you might be able to adjust it and make your trigger suck (in your eyes) or you can buy another marker. Join the club read my post at:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89225&highlight=psp+chicago

another unsatisfied customer in my eyes.. I still think emags in thier current setup are NOT TOURNEY LEGAL

Buy another marker if you want to play at the higher tourney levels and not be messed with. That is all I can suggest. I think the the RT valve that AGD uses for the E/Xmags will be banned this time next year anyway. There is too much controversy around them, and the E/Xmags do not perform as caimed anyway.

If you do not know your marker any better than to not read his particular problem and offer CORRECT advice then I suggest you just don't offer any. And if you yourself do not know what to do any better than that so as to lump his problem into the same as yours then I suggest you do change markers. I do not think you took the time to read his post at all. And if you come and condem all Emags, and ignore all the MAJORITY of folks successfully playing with them, then you already got your mind made up. And your input is no longer helpfull. It's biased and erroneous. There will be plenty of NON AGD markers succumb to being illegal in the next year or so. Before its over there will be no marker you will be able to count on if you condem them all for the failure of one or two not working properly.

[lamby]

his problem is not the HES, but the fact that a slight break one way or another will trip or reset the hes. I am talking 1/64th an inch on the trigger (a heart beat can cause this) if the board resets because it thought the trigger was released it is ready to fire again. HES switches can be VERY touchy. that is why a interupter circuit is superior to a magnetic system (the IR3s). Even a switch is better because it is mechanical, and therfore can be adjusted easier, and the circuit can eliminate bounce as needed.

Emags RULE... But not for tourney guns

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
his problem is not the HES, but the fact that a slight break one way or another will trip or reset the hes. I am talking 1/64th an inch on the trigger (a heart beat can cause this) if the board resets because it thought the trigger was released it is ready to fire again. HES switches can be VERY touchy. that is why a interupter circuit is superior to a magnetic system (the IR3s). Even a switch is better because it is mechanical, and therfore can be adjusted easier, and the circuit can eliminate bounce as needed.

Emags RULE... But not for tourney guns

You make no sense. First you say its not the HES then you describe the HES in fact resetting. IT IS THE HES! And I just explained how precise you have to set that. I could indeed fix both of yours. And even if it resulted in another HES I can fix em. An HES system works very well. But its finicky. But it can be made to work well. Most of them do.

[lamby]

philip is that better? that is the electrical engineer in me speaking out. If you want to bash my spelling or grammar also, go ahead I never claimed to spell or type well.

But I do have an associates in applied electronics, and have been working in the field for 13 years so I do know some stuff. The problems were not the same, but the fix action is.

[cphilip]

Ok well first of all lets get a few things straight. In your post about your problem you had bounce problems. You never once described a HES triggering problem. In fact you indicated NO problems in Emode. You indicated it would have passed but that they wouldn't let you remove the trigger rod and go on.

And no the fixes are vastly different. And you should know that.

Now you jump on the HES issue? And say its the same problem you had? At least you seem to be implying that in your response here.

Your credibility is slipping with me now.

Let me tell you that I have heard of a few overly sensitive HES's being replaced. Just a few. And in some cases a less stong magnet. Just a few. But in all cases this can be fixed.

Now was it not you that had a non standard trigger your Magnet was in? And if I am correct in my memory of it that would lead to HES/ Trigger magnet proximity issues. And you would know that. But then again you said nothing about a HES issue in your posts.... So what am I supposed to believe here?

[lamby]

it is not how you adjust the HES, but if there there is a ref that want to double fire it he will. you move the magnet in closer the contact point is sooner, but you have the same problem... You move it further, the contact is later, but again, the same problem. I was not challenged on this other wise I would have failed that too. I never thought of that issue about about holding a shot.. This will be hard for all e-guns, but most hard for the magnet assy that AGD uses

[cphilip]

...and I am saying that that can be gotten out of it. With proper adjustment. Perhaps even parts replacement. But if its doing that its malfunctioning and can be made to function correctly. However I would not attempt to correct yours with that other trigger. Nor would AGD. But I have no idea if he has a non stock trigger. My attempt here was to help him by explaining the PROPER Emag trigger adjustment. I suspect he is too far out. And has not adjusted it with side pull. And if all that fails we look at the HES and Magnet. All replaceable.

Unfortunately you decided it can't be done and chose to just say they are not Tournament legal and cannot be made to be. And that is a position I cannot agree with. If it were true I would agree with you. But its not. Nor does MOST experiences of people in the field and my personal experiece with the marker back that up in any way. So thats where we part ways on that. I say it can be fixed. Both problems can be fixed. You say no. Well we gonna have to disagree there.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by cphilip
Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
There must be a magnetic switch in there somewhere.

HES = Hall Effect Sensor. Yes... its the switch.

Sorry Just speculating as to what is causing the bounce. I think some people have said you can add or remove additional magnets.

Nope. Top trigger magnets removed or replaced only change the pull weight. Not the proximity of the Trigger magnet to the HES. And that I just explained is the crutial distance. And what he is telling me from what I can see is he was not getting "bounce" but multiple fire from mulitple triggering of the HES by the Trigger magnet. And that all spells adjustment. Most likely from side to side slop that he didn't have it adjusted to account for. The distance between right and wrong here is 1/4 turn or even less.

Don't speculate. Know...

Now I know. Thats the answer.

Replace the Magnet with a differnt one and if that doesnt work replace the HES, Magentic Reed switch.

Now heres the $800 question.

How much does the magnet cost?

[cphilip]

Its about a buck or so I think. But if any of these are malfunctioning (too strong a magnet or too sensitive a HES) I suspect AGD would replace them for free. If they can't get it solved any other way they most often would. Remember they want these things to pass and be usable so it would be their wish to make it right. But NOT on a aftermarket trigger. They would replace that first and try to adjust it out and charge you for that trigger. But those two things being wrong are rare realy. Its more often the set up. Which admittedly is very precise to get set sometimes.