Would you Save the Industry if it Cost you a MILLION BUCKS?

[Catch22]

With $1 million dollars I could create my own paintball industry and forget everyone else. I'd name my company Kingman International. Of course I'd have to invest some money so I could have more than $1 mil because that's not alot.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I'd do it...and take Keely as my wife and make her wear the Princess Leia slave costume from Return of the Jedi..

[adam shannon]

only if you stand to make it back plus more. being a martyr is irrelevant given most people wouldnt even thank you when your pushing a shopping cart full of pop cans and living under a bridge. if it cost you your business youd be a footnote on a mesage board 10 years from now when some guy posts about some marker he found in his basement that said x-mag and had the serial number "tom kaye". some guy would post "yeah i remember that guy sorta...man he used to be big, what happened to him?"

jesus was a martyr, and if his memory hadnt turned into a buisness nobody would know who he was today.

[BarryTolar]

Save the "Sport" or save the "Industry" ?

Now I do think the "Sport" needs something from the "Industry". Namely paintballs. But that's about it.

I'm going to assume(and we all know what that does)that just about everyone on this board has a paintball marker and the basic trappings to play the "Sport". So if tomorrow we couldn't buy a X-mag does this limit our ability to play the "Sport" ?

In a larger scale if tomorrow every gun manufacter was shut down would this kill the "Sport" ? In some ways, yes BUT not to me - or the group I play with. As long as I can get paintballs and someone that will let me shoot at them the "Sport" isn't dead - at least to ME.

Is this selfish - sure but what do I care this is all only hypothetical right ?

So would I spend a million bucks on a 80% shot that the "Industry" could be saved. No. But then again I'm not running a company that makes paintball equipment and relies on the "Industry" to make a living.

Barry

[yeahthatsme]

yes if i had the money i would.

[bryceeden]

If I had the money I would. Paintball is my life and without it I would be stuck at home doing nothing(I run a paintball store) If I had an 80%chance of saving it I would do it, but if that million dollars and 80% chance was to keep it the same as it is now not nessasarily to save it than probably not unless I had a larger stake in the industry than I do now.

[Wooosh87]

Such a simple question raises so many more. I admit that I share the same thoughts as Doc on this one. Tom, your question is far to broad to be answered with a simple yes or no. If you are asking us if you should be a martyr for the entire sport of paintball and risk your company and future, than my answer is no. A single person should not be responsible for all. If you are asking if your personal interests are worth risking, that my friend is entirely up to you. I personally would fight for my rights as a business owner and do whatever was necessary to preserve my way of live. It is a gamble of large proportions, but one that is worth taking. I have been in similar situations as a business owner. It is not an easy task. But to not risk anything at all is to admit defeat before the battle is even fought. If this is a decision to stand and fight for your ideals and livelihood, then it is a good and just fight.
From your numbers, you look like you have a better than fair chance, but then again the opportunity to fail is always present. This is no light subject, (if it is the one that I think it is), and I am sure that you will make a decision that is in your best interests.

[Konigballer]

I agree with a bunch of the other guys on this one. From what little can be percieved from this very open question, I'd say, as mean as it sounds, why should you get nailed to the cross for the entire paintball industry. Its buisness, u think the competition would do the same? Frankly, from all the uproar over the X-mag production shortage and the state of the mag on the paintball scene in general, I doubt AGD has a million just layin' around to throw to the wolves. If u do, i'd suggest spendin' it on cleanin up your production line and getting the company out in the magazine advertisements that the noobs love and into the hands of players on the field. Some clarification of the question would be greatly apreciated. A million or not, what can u actually do to save the industry, and what needs to be saved?

[shartley]

[Lohman446]

I have no idea what the profit margins in paintball are... I am considering the fact that the Suburban that we all hunted you in was not brand new, and was not that Mercedes G class thing I am expecting that million dollars is a lot of money. (A million dollars is a lot of money to anyone).

If it is a single 1 million industry wide to make current threatening problems go away then yes - sort of. Here is my point on things anyways - there are a number of companies that have from informal practices in the past built the paintball industry into what it is now. AGD for one, WGP for another - take your pick on who you think has the ethics and business practices to be included - ICD, WDP, PMI, Kingman, Brass Eagle (don't harp on the biggest supplier of paintball products that get most people started in the sport), RPS (and other paintball manufacturers) etc. I beleive that there are many companies that fit in here that I have not named and at least one that should not be included. Given current industry practices it is time for these companies to form a more broad group with some agreements on patents, base design sharing, and COMMON LEGAL DEFENSE. If it is one million dollars industry wide to save paintball then yes - these companies need to spend it, and I must beleive that between them it would not be that major of an issue.

The base question - Tom if you have to spend a million dollars to save paintball... as bad as I'm going to get nailed on this one... its not your problem to save paintball. You have invested much of your life, much of your time, and much of your money (think of the profits if you had not shared HPA) into bringing paintball to what it is today. Tom, we respect you greatly for what you have done for all of us, but you alone do not hold the responsibility of saving paintball (see above).
Besides Tom, you have always been smarter than the industry, thinking ahead of it. I am sure, whatever threat the industry faces now, you will think of a way around it (ULT trigger?), to make paintball greater and greater - though I beleive, again, that the industry as a whole, needs to make this problem go away.

[xatle]

i can't think of a situation that could pose a serious threat to paintball...but will go away for a million bucks.
from my point of view the only thing that would prevent me from being able to play paintball is a lack of paint. so if America is in danger of running out of paint and an infusion of a million dollars would solve this problem then i would spend that million.

[Lee]

in a market as large as pb, 1 mil is a drop in the bucket.

does the pb industry need saving? i don't think so. it has a life of it's own now, from the biggest company right down to the mom and pop fieds. something like that just does not collapse without a million dollar injection.

if 1 mil, for whatever reason would save it, and i had it, yes, i'd do it.

personally, i'm waiting for the press release as it seems to me we have rumor to go on right now and not much from the company that is said to have started the issue mentioned in so many threads.

[1stdeadeye]

No

No I wouldn't ask you to do that. Yes, the industry is very important, however you can not expect AGD to put itself in jeopardy for the rest of the industry. If you could get a consortium of people from the industry to throw $100k each into the pot, well then that is okay. Tom you can't risk what you have for the industry. That would be very selfless of you, but how much would that hurt AGD. You would have to raise prices, your R&D would most likely be knocked to nothing, and you inventory would have to be depleted.

I say take care of AGD first and worry about the industry second!

[WarBUCKs]

UPDATED a little bit July 27th 2003

To be honest, I would not even try to save the paintball industry myself. I believe that everyone involved in the sport should save the industry in their own way.

Well, I really don't know who or what I would be saving it from, but maybe The People, The companies or The Government

The People: IMHO, I believe that the quality of people has been on the decline during the last 5 years of the sport. There is too much attitude, resentment, cheating and social agendas that occur on todays fields. Everyone is to caught up in themselves and only care whether they win or lose and not about the good time.

Would I spend 1 million dollars to save it from the people who have formed it into what it has become? Hell no. Why? First, I can't change anyones mind on "how cool" they are and how they act. Second, saving people like this isn't a worthy enough cause. The people make it how they want it.

The people of paintball are responsible for what goes on and innovations in the industry. They push companies further to acheive better guns and products. Right now, it seems as if speed is the only thing that is driving the paintball industry into the future. Maybe that could be a downfall or that is what is selling guns at the moment.


The Companies: SP is probably going to enforce their patents against all the other companies in the paintball industry (from what I read, but I haven't read thoroughly cuz I lack interest in that). What stops all other companies from beginning to enforce their recent patents that they haven't enforced? I really don't see the good of this for the future of the sport and revenue for a company. People are greedy and so are corporations, what can you do about it?

Now, If a non-profit organization (NPO) was setup to help battle the companies that are hurting the industry, I would be all for that. This way if someone were to use a million dollars to prevent damage to a hurting industry it would be used as a write off for the company (Ex. AGD). Doing it this way could even gather donations from around the world to help fight the problems which might lead to more money to save the industry, but then you deal with "The People."

I still wouldn't support the spending of 1 companies money, but a group of companies or a paintball committee that could be used to fight upcoming problems with organizations in the future might be a good idea. (See NPO above)


The Government: This is a good one and I think Doc Nickel had a good example of OSHA dropping velocties to a max of 125fps. I don't think this would happen anytime soon unless there was a upsurge of high velocity related deaths in less than a year.

Now, fighting the government may be a bit harder and wouldn't even be worth spending the money. If OSHA wanted to drop the velocities, they are going to do it and it might take Tens of Millions of dollars to convince them otherwise. I wouldn't even try this one.

I don't think Tom is talking about the government increasing more restrictive controls on paintball players in the future, but I may be wrong. I do believe that a fight against the government wouldn't get you very far. Especially the Feds; Easier with State.

To me an 80% chance is still a high risk investment. It is like taking a 20 question test and automatically losing 20% (4 questions), just for the hell of it. During the test there are 5 questions that you know the answer to, but the teacher decides he doesn't like your answer so you miss all 5 of them. Now you have a 55% on the test that you thought you could get an 80% on.

Is that logical? I am not sure, cuz my logic is bizarre.

Who knows what we are saving here and what the possibilites are. If 80% is the best bang for the buck you can get, pass it up, it isn't worth it. If it was an 80% minimum chance, and you think you had a possible 100% chance, then do it.

Well, I speculated on what we are saving for a million dollars and gave my oppinon on 3 different subjects.

I hope my opinion helps Tom!!!


Rob

[Fred]

Save the Sport for 1 Mil? Yes, here's a check for you to go towards the pot.

Save the Industry for 1 Mil? No. It doesn't deserve saving.


If the current dillema facing the Industry does in fact become the grim reality that many of us fear, there will still be other options.

Oops, can't get an electro now even though I'm lookin at getting a semi auto... Oh, wait, there are plenty of very nice purely mechanical options that I probably would have preferred anyway.

There are many great companies in the industry now, and if the worst happens, they may or may not survive, but most of them have alternatives to pursue (I'd love to see the Desert Fox back on the market... or more Mags, Cockers, and even better, more pumps!).

Think of it as a purge of sorts... maybe right now its looking grim, but... in the BIG picture... it might not be as big of a catastrophe as we think...

I've been pretty disgusted with a lot of the industry the last couple years, there's too much crap in it, its become tainted and lost sight of the common good in exchange for more money or image...


to recap: Save the sport, let the Industry to its own devices.

---Fred