After the mag for AGD?

[Bad_Dog]

"behind"??

I plan to keep my mag till I'm dead...
and I have a feeling that it'll last that long...

That's all that matters to me...

[rx2]

I failed to cover the aspect of the trigger in the E-Mag. Now, while it is completely adjustable, and there are aftermarket blades which have been successfully used in manual, it is one area where AGD is missing a lot of potential customers, I think.

In my experience, the stock trigger is not setup to comply with what many players are looking for. From what I have heard, most people complain that it is a tad difficult to walk. You and I know that it is completely adjustable, but many probably do not, and in today's instant gratification society, most people want to walk into a store and purchase a marker that will fire just as easily as the others, with no tweaking. Some will not mind, but many are more likely to go with the hyped marker with amazing pull than the undersold Mag with what might be a slightly disfavorable pull out of the box. The problem is, though, that keeping the trigger set the way it is, stock, is probably the most fool-proof, and will allow players to easily shoot in all three modes, no problems.

This, I think relates back to the dreaded "M" word - marketing.

Unless Tom plans to release an electro-only Mag, which I don't think he has been too enthusiastic about in the past, then the trigger will be set the same way. I think that the only way to really get people to overlook this is to get them to undestand that this setting isn't adamant. Also, they need to understand why this marker is more than just the trigger. Aside from tournament use of Mags, and the related hype, marketing is the other means.

So, in this regard, AGD could be considered behind, or lacking.

If what I said sounds odd, consider how many posts one sees here touting other markers over E/X-Mags based upon the trigger. Now, we have all probably seen people rip on their Mags at speeds that are at the human limits. Yet, we keep seeing posts on how the Mags just aren't fast enough. While I am sure there are some that will dislike the E-Mag triggers no matter how they are set, I think that most people who complain simply haven't tried one that has been optimized for their style of shooting. After all, one can't really say that the other markers are truly faster, when most, including the Mags, have limits that exceed human capabilities (although the older E-Mags were capped too low). Yet, I always see posts claiming "marker 'X' is WAY faster than the E-Mag."

ANYHOW, I find that the stock trigger setup is probably the last complaint most people really have, and has turned off a lot of people who don't want to take the time to adjust it (that, and chrono issues). Again, though, I can't say that Tom isn't trying to adress this issue, as well, because I am not him. Perhaps he will take a cue from all of the TL-63 blades that were being made by a fellow AOer.

[AutomagRT1483]

Originally posted by Bad_Dog
"behind"??

I plan to keep my mag till I'm dead...
and I have a feeling that it'll last that long...

That's all that matters to me...

I betcha it will last long after your dead Mine will

[cphilip]

There is still nothing out there that can recharge as quickly as the RT Valves chamber. Its a benchmark that cannot be matched. Intantaneously and immediately and fully is as good as it can get. And no one else is even close.

[JEDI]

Re: After the mag for AGD?

Originally posted by Prairie
Well, in my opinion...I don't see the mag valve/blow forward design lasting another 10 years...I just feel something may come along and completely blow older designs like this and the cocker away.

Any thoughts on if AGD would move on with the rest of the world?

In the eyes of outsiders, AGD has been one step behind for awhile (RT when electro started, emag when electros were getting faster, efficient, consistent)

Opinions?

I just wanted to say I completely agree with you. AGD has some really innovative ideas, both now and in the past, but I think a lot of other companies do as well. I dont think the status of the Mag, and the invention of HPA tanks for Paintball, can still be considered as ahead of its time.

I think electro-pneumatic is where its at. The E & X-mag are great designs, but I think the Basic valve/reg design is going to begin to hold AGD markers behind. I could be wrong, but I think AGD has peaked with their design of the X-mag. Now sure, people back in the day could have said the same about the Classic Mag, but what else can you really do to The Electro Mag, without a complete redesign.

I would really like to see Tom venture off into another area of electro markers. I think his engineering is top notch. He's a really smart guy. I think the love of his current valve design is holding AGD back. Sure redesign, and research, and all the other bla bla bla involved in making another gun is tolling, but I think with Tom's skill, he has the potential to creat another gun that would shock the P-ball world.

Basically I'm saying I wouldnt buy another AGD electro. They're very good guns (my emag kicked ***). But there is too much out there, for me to limit myself to one design. However, like I said, I think Tom has one of the most brilliant minds in paintball. I'd almost be scared to see what kind of sucka-mowing-machine he could come up with next. Come on Tom! Push yourself! Impress us!

[cledford]

Re: Re: After the mag for AGD?

Originally posted by JEDI

I would really like to see Tom venture off into another area of electro markers. I think his engineering is top notch. He's a really smart guy. I think the love of his current valve design is holding AGD back. Sure redesign, and research, and all the other bla bla bla involved in making another gun is tolling, but I think with Tom's skill, he has the potential to creat another gun that would shock the P-ball world.

Basically I'm saying I wouldnt buy another AGD electro. They're very good guns (my emag kicked ***). But there is too much out there, for me to limit myself to one design. However, like I said, I think Tom has one of the most brilliant minds in paintball. I'd almost be scared to see what kind of sucka-mowing-machine he could come up with next. Come on Tom! Push yourself! Impress us!

Dude, with all due respect, WTF? Do you have any idea what you've just said? You've basically just told the guy who invented the only PB valve TO HAVE NOT EVEN REACHED IT"S POTENTIAL to go back and build a gun on technology that has already been proven to be outdated? Doesn't make sense to me...

Anyhow, here is is the rest of my response to this thread...

Cphil is right about the RT valve - I've seen it on a dyno. No other marker (period) can come close to recharging as fast. It does not matter how fast the might CYCLE, if you really can pull 16-20 bps any other gun is going to shoot down on you (whether you notice it or not) and the RT won't.

Also, someone said that AGD has yet to come out with a LP gun - this MYTH has been settled time and again - there is no LP pressure!!! All guns (within a less then 10psi difference) put the SAME BLAST OF AIR BEHIND THE BALL. Just because the Air going filling the chamber is higher MEANS NOTHING unless YOU WANT IT TO FILL FASTER - which do you prefer?

It seems that every couple of weeks the same type of post comes up. As stated earlier in this one - AGD is so ahead of the time that the other STILL haven't caught up. To tell you the truth they MAY NEVER! If you have ever heard Tom's lecture on orings then you'd know that there are some companies that aren't so "smart" after all - since they can't even design a marker that functions correctly. As Tom has stated the Oring is atom of paintball - if you don't understand how it works how can you understand any of the rest of gun design? The other so called "engineers" working at other companies are no where near his league. Even Aaron Alexander (who semi-impressed me) still thinks that closed bolt guns shoot more accurately - how can that be?

The truth is that most people in the industry (consumers or producers) can't handle AGD's level of pioneering and have to "catch up" years later. Look at the Zgrip - how many years did it take WDP to knock off the idea? Now everyone is doing it. There are countless examples for this - power-feed, compressed air, "response triggers", etc.

-Calvin

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I still would like more research/info on that nothing can touch the RTs recharge rate, and is the RTs recharge rate a good thing ie the ramping of velocity. Plus recharge rate is directly proportional to what it is meant to do, ie I doubt the RT would perform well at 200 psi. Also the RT is a single use regulator tailor made for the marker since it is in essence the marker itself. Whereas almost all other regulators can be adopted via the standard ASA to any marker (with an ASA).

I doubt the mag design will fall behind any time soon, at least the basic "mag" design, ie being an open bolt blow forward that velocity is adjusted by a regulator. Take a look at the modern combustion engine, same basic concept as 80 years ago...But do to refining the concept we can say that the motors of yesteryear are much different than todays standard.

Is AGD "behind the times"? They were but they are now catching up...Take for instance some of innovations that took 10 years to finally catch on, Vertical Feed...its industry standard now. Threaded barrels as opposed the Twist Lock, some may say that the Twist Lock is innovation but obviously a majority of the paintball community prefers the cocker threaded. The ability to survive brittle paint, many markers have had no problems with this for years.

The valve itself is at the cusp of innovation...First to have a regulator as standard equipment, nice ROF, tight compact package...

All of these things reflect the trend in AGD to create a well made product but to ignore the other facts of a business, marketting, and the accessories.

Az

[845]

The thing that is holding AGD back is the wait on the X-Mags. I know tons of people who want one but end up buying a different gun cause they dont wanna wait 6 months.

[JEDI]

Re: Re: Re: After the mag for AGD?

Originally posted by cledford


Dude, with all due respect, WTF? Do you have any idea what you've just said? You've basically just told the guy who invented the only PB valve TO HAVE NOT EVEN REACHED IT"S POTENTIAL to go back and build a gun on technology that has already been proven to be outdated? Doesn't make sense to me...

Also, someone said that AGD has yet to come out with a LP gun - this MYTH has been settled time and again - there is no LP pressure!!! All guns (within a less then 10psi difference) put the SAME BLAST OF AIR BEHIND THE BALL. Just because the Air going filling the chamber is higher MEANS NOTHING unless YOU WANT IT TO FILL FASTER - which do you prefer?


-Calvin

Dude! Why dont you accept that there are opinions other than yours. Right, I told him to go back and design, you said "has not reached its potential"...well... wouldn't getting closer to its potential require REDESIGNING? Or are you suggesting Tom already has all the plans and ideas for Mags years to come?

And why is it, when it comes to any disadvantage in a mag, you hard core Mag fans are so quick to call it a "Myth". I've seen plenty of Fast guns recharge at an acceptable rate with no shoot down. Great, so in lab tests, the RT is the fastest. In real time gun in your hand shooting, who cares? I'd rather have a gun that shoots pretty damn fast, and requires only a 250 input, then a gun thats the fasted gun in the world and requires 1000 psi input.

You're acting like no other gun performs well, and everything has rediculous amounts of shootdown. Low pressure isnt a myth. Let me see you shoot your Emag at insane rates of fire, on a tank with 400 psi left in it. My E-blade can. But notice, I didnt say it's better than your Emag. I'm just saying running a marker on something less than a bottle rocket is nice. Ok, your right, low pressure means nothing... than why did Tom redesign his bolt to be a "low pressure" bolt. Try sticking your finger in a non LX mag. My cocker pinched paint when it was stock out of the box. I can put my finger in the breach of and E-blade or impulse with no problem.

I'm so sick of the defense that there is no low pressure. You bring up all these insignificant arguements, but fail to compare 1000psi working pressure, and 250psi working pressure. Hmm... one of those sounds like LOWER PRESSURE.

Take your pissed off at everyone, I know everything- attitude somewhere else, and allow the rest of us to hold a decent conversation with out flaming.

[cphilip]

Re: Re: Re: Re: After the mag for AGD?

Originally posted by JEDI
I'm so sick of the defense that there is no low pressure. You bring up all these insignificant arguements, but fail to compare 1000psi working pressure, and 250psi working pressure. Hmm... one of those sounds like LOWER PRESSURE.

Thats just flat wrong... The working pressure is around 400 psi in the mag... Input is and can be the same as most any other marker. You completely forget the Mag valve is a regulator in itself. BUT with the unique ability to put full tank pressure into the Air Chamber for faster recharge. You don't get it. LP is NOT an advantage in this respect nor does it automatically spell "better". That's just oversimplistic thinking. LP is a direct result of a marker requiring it to overcome some of its design disadvantages so it will slow it's bolt speed down. It doesn't make it better. And in some cases makes it worse. Its not any advantage when all the other things you want a marker to do are thrown into the mix. In the mag we can do ALL the things we want to without the numbers of LP that you call LP. Assuming you want to call LP anything lower than 400?

No one else can do slow bolt speeds, low pressure to ball surface, regulate the tank air, dump full pressure into the Air Chamber for lightning fast recharge AND achieve high rate of fire with a fast bolt speed at the end. Its a marvelous valve. All in one package. Its so compact and does so many things well its going to be impossible to beat that.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

"Impossible to beat?"

Very few if any things are impossible to beat. Efficiency? Battery Size for the Emag? The Mag is an excellent design but let us not assume it is the best design. The inability to run off CO2...The shoot up. Those all come to mind. How about cost? Or are we not factoring in that and just looking at a purely performance side?

On a side note, LP means relatively little. The LVL10 works remarkably well and solves the whole breaking paint issue quite well. An excellent innovation no doubt.

Az

[Gadget]

I wouldn't say that the inability to run on CO2 is a disadvantage. When you consider that my entire team started running HPA in 1994, it's amazing that almost a decade later we still haven't managed to stamp out CO2 completely.

[silentdeath55]

think about it this way, how many designs that could beat a mag valve would be able to run on CO2??

[sharpshooter1286]

jedi, u are contradicting what more than half the people said here and then said "let us hold a decent conversation without flaming" when u urself just did a huge amout of flaming

[RRfireblade]

Possible future refinements for the Mag....

#1- Carbon fiber valve body (sweet)

#2- Titanium bolt

#3- Nuclear fusion reactor (no batteries)

#4- On board N2 diffusion system w/ internal compression.
(no air tank)

#5- Intellifire -like intellifeed 'cept fires on every
mental trigger pull, then people will actually be able
to shoot as fast as they THINK they do now.

#6- Warp factor 10 feed (trekkies will get that one)

#7- Meglev Barrel system - bored magnetic superconductor,
positively charges the paintball causing levitation
down the barrel and retaining the positive charge
down range causing FLAT tragectory,unlimited range with
complete spin free ejection. (cocker's beware)

So you see there's plenty of improvement left.

Jay.

P.S. All these ideas are Patent Pending so don't get any ideas SP.