After the mag for AGD?

[Prairie]

Originally posted by Gadget
I wouldn't say that the inability to run on CO2 is a disadvantage. When you consider that my entire team started running HPA in 1994, it's amazing that almost a decade later we still haven't managed to stamp out CO2 completely.

Why would we do that? A correctly set up CO2 system allows way more shots than anything else....plus, I don't see any 12 gram nitrogen bottles coming out anytime soon.

think about it this way, how many designs that could beat a mag valve would be able to run on CO2??

All of them...any marker can be ran using co2 with a proper reg setup.

[Prairie]

Originally posted by RRfireblade

#7- Meglev Barrel system - bored magnetic superconductor,
positively charges the paintball causing levitation
down the barrel and retaining the positive charge
down range causing FLAT tragectory,unlimited range with
complete spin free ejection. (cocker's beware)

Was just talking about this with a friend of mine last night....having a hopper that charges the balls, and a electromagnetics step-bolt/barrel combo...definetly seeing WAY WAY future paintball here.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by AzrealDarkmoonZ
"Impossible to beat?"

Ok well I guess if you want to take something out of context...I believe we were talking about the valve and its operation. I know I was.

[Frontline Newbie]

Originally posted by Lohman446
What

Ok - you have guns on the market now that can outshoot anyones ability to pull the trigger, and hoppers that will nearly keep up with them. Fully auto is banned. We have proven that accuracy is paint to barrel match (I was hitting a 2" steel pipe at 50 feet consistantly with my X-valved, CP .689 barrel, and marbalizer today). What more could you want from a gun. The only possible improvements i see in guns in the future is efficiency(or a new propulsion system entirely). Valveless and spool valves (while I will admit I know nothing about them) can do little more than the same thing valves today do - propel the paintball.

you said basicly what I wanted to say but was to lazy. Paintball guns are as good as they get, Even the newest closed bolt fully pnumatic electrics like the matrix arn't any faster or more accurate, and I don't see agd moving that way any time soon.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
#5- Intellifire -like intellifeed 'cept fires on every
mental trigger pull, then people will actually be able
to shoot as fast as they THINK they do now.

I like the way you think!

[PaintballSmurf13]

ok, im not going to read all of these, so what I say may have already been said......

I think AGD is WAY ahead of the industry. Just think about it..they have made grips like the Zgrip and Ygrip or comfort..they have a SINGLE tube design that has been reworked a whole lot to bring you a really compact and incredibly fast gun. They have bolts that cant chop paint and you can even put your finger in the breech (lvl 10). Mags are compact, reliable, fast, light, and simple. basically everything you'd ever want in a gun. They have intellifeeds for MANUAL guns. They invented the reactive trigger years ago which is just a fast as any electro, without running on batteries.

And think about it. If Dynasty or the Ironmen started using mags, a LOT more people would shoot mags. Its all about guns that look cool and are used by pros. Its all HYPE. Its like a popularity contest. I see people talk all kinds or trash about mags yet they've never owned one or shot one. It sickens me . Well, i'm done ranting, just my $0.02.

-Ryan F.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I tried not to take it out of context, all of my points were directed at the valve, although I suppose I could say the large battery pack is a stretch. The Mag was and still is a very nice design. By itself it is a very streamlined product, that is still neat to realize you can fit 90% of the workings of a paintball marker into, as opposed to say a cocker in which half of it hangs out the front. OF course by the same token look at the Blazer, also a very small compact system. Maybe not quite as elegant but still small and compact.

Az

[Wooosh87]

To get back on the subject, is AGD behind or in front of the pack? I have owned my 68 Automag, (that's right, not a "Classic," but an original Mag), since 1991. If I were to go and purchase an Automag right now today, it would be almost 99% the identical unit I have had for almost 13 years. The only things I can think of that has changed on the Mag from my old one to today's new ones are:

What's different:

Composite grip frame
Plastic nubbins
Foamless bolt
No barrel included
No ASA/bottom line included
No loader included

What is the same:

Stainless main body
Aluminum main rail
Stainless valve assembly
Loader elbow
Bottle of oil
Instruction manual
Instructional VHS video (Tom looks like a teenager!)


Yes, the Automag was available without a barrel and ASA back in 1991, but very few were sold that way. Mostly they were regular feed bodies that were used for field rentals. The most popular configuration was the CP/PF, (Crown Point barrel and Power Feed in either Hopper left or right model).

So, six things have changed in over 10 years. Three of which are excluded items that are not available even as options. What this boils down to is that the gun is the same as it was 10+ years ago. Nothing drastic has changed. Now mind you this is only with the "Classic" Automag, not the E Mag, X Mag, R/T. The Minimag has changed even less! Is AGD getting old? Yes, But only in some of the product line. They have released many new items into the fold over the years, but still have limited products to offer. All the ULE and Aluminum stuff is great, but it's just a lighter version of the stock units with moderate changes. My opinion is that they should have had the ULE body out many years ago as a standard item.
I still own my Mag, and have bought and sold many other guns since 1991. But I still have my good old reliable Mag.

I think there is a better question to ask here:

Is AGD getting boring?

That all depends on your taste. I personally think the base product line is stale. The Classic, Mini and R/T just don't cut it in the looks and price department. When a customer walks into a pro shop and checks out the guns on the wall, does the Classic Automag look as appealing as that flashy Spyder that costs $100.00 less? Depends on the person I guess. Personally I want to purchase an item that is going to give me the best performance, looks, reliability all for the least amount of money. I also don't want to hear from the salesman that I need to spend "X" amount more just to have a usable gun. Personally a drab gray or matte black gun that's incomplete and more expensive is not as appealing than that stack tube-semi-auto-same-as-the-rest-cloned-spyder that only needs a tank, goggles and some paintballs to get me playing.
AGD has lost out on the entry level and even mid range market. They just don't bring enough to the table. Now you can argue that AGD has brought the E Mag, X Mag and R/T Pro to the market, but in all fairness it was a bit less than stellar an entrance for this product line. They never really advertised or marketed these items to the fullest extent. They tried to let the AGD name and reputation carry these products to the limelight. Not the best choice. How often do you see PVI Shockers and Angel LED's in the older video's and magazines compared to the R/T's and Classic Mag's? I know that I was excited to see ONE R/T in a video from 1998. (Go back 3-5 years more and all you see is Mags and Cockers. That was really all that was available for the top level and pro teams at that period in time).

Let's now compare three companies at the same time at the present day. AGD, Tippmann and Kingman are good examples. Three known names in the paintball community that are respected in one form or another. Which of these companies do you see in any paintball specific magazines and video's at any given month? Tippmann and Kingman are in there with multiple page spreads every month. AGD hasn't been seen in a magazine on a regular basis for quite some time now. Tippmann and Kingman advertise a broad product selection for their customers to look at and contemplate that next purchase. AGD's products may pop up in a "new items" section once in a while, but not as regularly advertised products. I can throw that figurative "rock" at a magazine and hit a spyder/clone or Tippmann nine times out of ten. Will I hit upon an AGD product? Not very likely. Kingman did themselves a world of good when they bought pro team Bad Company. Here is a pro team shooting off the rack guns against expensive and top of the line guns. Good way to highlight that your products are capable of contending with the best. Tippmann also has a good thing going for them with Tippmann Effect. Check out www.Warpig.com in the IAO photo directory. On almost every page you see the team Tippmann Effect. These guys shoot guns that have been labeled by the masses for the entry level player. You can pick these guns up, (in base form for under $150.00) at Wal Mart and K Mart. Not only is this free advertising, but it's in your face advertising on yet a subtle level. AGD has been left behind at the marketing department. The old adage still holds true, "To make money, you have to spend money." To get the word out on your products you have to advertise, and do it on a regular basis be it in print, video or on the Internet, advertising sells products. Yes, AGD has sponsored teams. Yes, you do see them on websites, magazines and video's but not to the scale as Tippmann and Kingman have accomplished. Why? Kingman and Tippmann have paid money to do so. Will AGD stick to sponsoring teams? I truly hope so. Will we see AGD ad's in the popular magazines? I would like to see them do that, and more.

On a different, yet same note, what is AGD missing in it's product line? For one, soft goods. Jerseys, tee shirts, hats, barrel condoms, lanyards, pants, gloves, etc.
Paintball has become more than just going out and playing a game. It has become a fashion frenzy. Take a look at DYE Precision Inc. Here is a company that exploited the growth of paintball to the fullest extent. Can anyone remember what DYE's first product was? I personally don't remember. I do know that you can buy all your gear and equipment from one company, and that is DYE. From your goggles to your shoes, you can be 100% covered in DYE stuff. You can even buy that new set of DYE socks with money straight out of your DYE wallet that was stuck in the back of your DYE shorts that are held up by that DYE belt that your DYE shirt covers up. See what AGD missed out on? Is it a good thing to exploit the sport and even you the customer? A lot of people think it's just fine that DYE did it, or they wouldn't be so popular. Oh, and how did you get to the shop in all your DYE gear? on your SPYDER skateboard!

AGD has chosen, by choice or by default to take the path less traveled. I can respect that. I can also respect DYE for going the extra mile in marketing and in there product line to try and completely dominate the market. After all, business is business right?

Personally I have used AGD products for almost 13 years now. That's 13 years of good customer service, quality products and a feeling in my gut that I know my gear is going to work day in and day out. I respect AGD like no other company in the paintball industry. I would now like to see them step up to the plate and swing for the fence...

[AGD]

Ok I am going to respond to Woosh because I think he has some valid points but I would like to clarify.

Its unfair to compare us to Kingman and entry level markers in general. To say that we lost the entry level market is true but its true for EVERYONE. The only people that can compete in that market is China and Brass Eagle who are having everything made in Mexico now.

Were we boring? Yes I would have to agree with you we were and in many ways still are. The Classic from the name to the look is uninspiring. Then why the heck do we still sell it? Simple, because it outsells our other markers by about 4-1. Don't ask me why it just does. Its tough to drop the product when it goes together easily and doesnt come back for repairs.

On to Tippmann, brilliant company in peak form. If someone could please explain to me why they can sell any gun as long as its black and the best seller is the 1998 model I would sure like to know. Tippmann couldn't be more different than Kingman with their 100 models but they both split the market in two, go figure. No one but Tippmann understands how they are so successfull and I sure don't see anyone duplicating their moves.

Extra stuff like apparel. Yes its important if you want to look big. I think you should give us some points for what we have come out with in the last year or so. We do have jersies, hats, barrel condoms, stickers, girl stuff, t-shirts , mousepads, posters and sweatshirts. Just because you dont see it at your local store doesn't mean we don't have it.

We are lacking in advertising that is true. But again give us points for having the largest owners group on the net, we do almost as many kilobytes as PBN (if you can believe it) and we are VERY involved with our customers. All the other manufacturers are launching forums trying to create what we have here. Call it a cult or whatever you want but the fact is we have a lot of fun here and people go away thinking good thoughts about AGD and thats what advertising is all about.

In closing I would like to remind everyone that Tippmann, Worr Games and AGD are the only gun manufacturers to survive from the 80's so we must be doing something right.

AGD

[Gadget]

Why would we do that? A correctly set up CO2 system allows way more shots than anything else....plus, I don't see any 12 gram nitrogen bottles coming out anytime soon.

Oh please, CO2 is an AWFUL power source for paintball guns when compared to HPA. I have horrible memories of trying to get a decent bottle fill in the middle of winter, huge cloudbursts out of the end of your barrel, elaborate expansion systems to prevent liquid getting into guns (mags and cockers alike), watching peoples bottles freeze under rapid fire and seeing their velocity drop-off, bottle burst disks blowing in the summer when someone left a tank in the sun etc etc.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Wooosh87
I think there is a better question to ask here:

Is AGD getting boring?

I think this is a great point from your post - and if it had been asked a couple of years ago, I might have has to say 'yes', but not now. It seems to me as if AGD are really ramping up the product releases - in the short time I've been reading this forum they've probably released more products than they did between 1996 and 2000.

They might still have a 'boring' image to those outside of AO, but personally I'm really happy with the range of new products that they've been bringing to market and hopefully we can spread the word and change peoples perception of their products.

[Adrenaline0520]

Ok, Many of you here on AO know me as MicromagRT and I know that I had a misunderstanding with AO a while back about the X-mag, but that is solved now(Thanks Tom!:). What I would like to share is that AGD is a quality company with some of the most highest quality products even though they can take a long time to make, but that just goes to show that hey care about customers and their quality service in what they make. The E-mag is far from being outdated and here are the reasons why:

1. It is one of the FASTEST guns on the market( RT valve still has highest recharge rate and who was the first to come up with Reactive and Magnetic Trigger, AGD)

2. The LVL 10 has solved the problem of breaking paint so why need a low pressure gun when that was mainly the reason for having low pressure(other than gas efficiency, except the old school Shocker which was one of the worse gas hogs in history), LVL 10 has solved that and is purely mechanical!

3. Now because of ULE, the mag is one of the lightest paintball markers on the market.

4. Durability and Reliability, mags are the most durable gun I have known in my five years of playing paintball.

5. Mags may not be the most efficient but by far are still very efficient guns on gas efficiency.

6. The E/X-mag can turn into an old school RT for us who are Old School:)

7. CUSTOMER SERVICE, this is where I was single handedly proven wrong, thanks to Tom my faith in AGD's customer service hit the roof, they have one, if not the best customer service in the paintball industry period.

So please prove me wrong if you can by the reasons I have given alone that AGD is being outdated, You can't. The E/X-mag may not be perfect (NO PB GUN IS) but the things that do not make it perfect (Example: Large Battery Pack) do not really effect the quality and performance of the gun. Tom is right, they MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT to last this long and I just listed the reasons above, period.

P.S.- Hurry up with me E-mag Tom!!!:),jk, can't wait to see it!

[JEDI]

Cphilip, I respect your knowledge of the mag. Honestly I wouldn't contest what you know. But, explain this to me, because this I know. You say technically the mag has a working pressure of 400psi. How so? Sure, it has an on board reg, that breaks down the 800 input. So do most guns though. (the inline reg) When I say working pressure, I think of the amount of air that is needed to come out of the tank to make the gun function. A mag will not work if I turned my Flatline down to 400 or 500 psi,(or used a 400psi preset) like on my E-blade. I'm not even going into "better", or "advantage". I'm just stating the difference.

Not to mention, I know my Emag to be fairly consistent, but horrible on efficiency. I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge. Regardless, I know it's true for my mag. I own two guns that can shoot with 500psi left in a 400psi preset tank. (Thats without any shootdown)

With my Emag, It took about 950 input to even work, and I wouldnt dream of going into a game with only 1000psi left in my tank.

So, I dont claim that LP is the best thing since sliced bread. I would much rather run 400psi into my gun than 1000psi. It just seems to make sence. Have a gun that functions flawlessly, with less air to do so.

I'm not trying to force anyone to say LP is better, but I dont think its a fad, or hype.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by JEDI
Not to mention, I know my Emag to be fairly consistent, but horrible on efficiency. I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge. Regardless, I know it's true for my mag. I own two guns that can shoot with 500psi left in a 400psi preset tank. (Thats without any shootdown)

Eh...

I wouldn't say "Mags are Gas Hogs"... heck, look at your own Low pressure guns, the Shocker and Stock Matrix were TERRIBLE gas hogs, yet other LP guns like the Viking, Excal, and upgraded/aftermarket matrices are extremely good.

Mags aren't gas hogs, and aren't super-effecient, I'd give them middle of the road... which isn't too bad, but hey, there is always room for improvement

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JEDI
You say technically the mag has a working pressure of 400psi. How so? Sure, it has an on board reg, that breaks down the 800 input. So do most guns though. (the inline reg) When I say working pressure, I think of the amount of air that is needed to come out of the tank to make the gun function. A mag will not work if I turned my Flatline down to 400 or 500 psi,(or used a 400psi preset) like on my E-blade. I'm not even going into "better", or "advantage". I'm just stating the difference.

Well yes but working pressure would be the same if you wanted to call it "working pressure" BEFORE it was regulated down. An inline reg does the same thing. And there are a few examples of markers that use the Tanks reg as an inline reg. And these are subject to some shoot down. What I am saying is the Mag RT valve is DESIGNED for fast recharge. And so it can dump full tank input pressure PAST the reg for a split second to get that recharge. That is its advantage.

Not to mention, I know my Emag to be fairly consistent, but horrible on efficiency. I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge. Regardless, I know it's true for my mag. I own two guns that can shoot with 500psi left in a 400psi preset tank. (Thats without any shootdown)

That is a downside to the whole thing. Its what you give up for the advantages. Now where does that extra go? I have no idea realy. It must be in the volume of air that has to be dumped to get the ball moving. So somewhere in the shape and size of the Power Tube maybe? But can it be designed out some? I dunno. I know the Power Tube has undergone many a evolution. To get the most balance of these things. Could it be a step away from being better? Perhaps. But it actualy might end up that you would have to INCREASE the front ends pressure to do that! Would people start saying that high pressure is better? Even if the efficency went up? Possibly. But they would be generalizing and so wrong again. It would only be better in that particular design. But we may not have anything to give up there to keep all the other benifits. Maybe at some point the design limits us and we have to live with a little less efficiency. If that is preferable to giving up recharge rate and rate of fire I believe most would not want to go there. But only Tom can realy say if he feels he can tweek a little more out of that design in that area without losing something.

With my Emag, It took about 950 input to even work, and I wouldnt dream of going into a game with only 1000psi left in my tank.

Thats odd but I believe you. I ran mine very often at 750 - 800. And would shoot down to about 650.

So, I dont claim that LP is the best thing since sliced bread. I would much rather run 400psi into my gun than 1000psi. It just seems to make sence. Have a gun that functions flawlessly, with less air to do so.

Well you live with the consequences. And if you can live with them then thats the marker for you. I just see no real advantage to going down to that level. With 4500 psi tanks coming on that seems to me to be less of a point than it might have been.

I'm not trying to force anyone to say LP is better, but I dont think its a fad, or hype.

Well I know what your trying to say. But what I am trying to point out is that its not a majic bullet for all applications. It has its drawbacks in certain applications. And so it cannot be assumed that lower means better. It can in some instances make some possitive things happen while resulting in some negatives. As can higher pressure. What is right for the RT valve may not be right for some other maker. So just trying to make a RT valve operate at a lower pressure may not result in any gains in the primary areas the RT was designed to excell in. It may worsen some of them and all jut to say you lowered the business end of the valve to operate at 100 psi less. And to take the tank down another 200 psi. I do not think those are significant things to strive for. I want my Mag to shoot fast and recharge to keep up with shooting fast. Thats primary to me over what it shoots down to in the tank or what I can tell my buddy about its "operating pressure". But there is a myth that its automaticaly better. And that we both should agree may not be the case. Bolt speed can be harnessed other ways now. The level 10 proved that. The myth started as the only way to slow down the bolt for less chopping. And now its taken on a life of its own because people did not realy know what they were doing that caused this drop in chopping. So they started assuming it was operating pressure that was doing it. In fact it was not that but the resulting bolt speed reduction. Lowering the operating pressure had no effect realy on how much air was dumped to get the ball moving at 300 fps. That is inherent in all the rest of the design. If has to dump MORE air at a lower pressure to achieve the same speed of ball movement. but the bolt moves slower and with less force so it chops less balls. But we can do that with a two speed bolt like level 10. Yea we waste some air doing it. But in the end its better because we retain ROF at the same time. Which do you prefer? You cannot always have everything so you have to chose.