Man my area is flooded with autocockers ... just about every pro shop in the area (St. Louis) has their own custom autocockers ... so of course they are more accurate then any other marker ...
Anyone think of anything that I missed?
(Start of posting)
First person
I will tell you this right now that autocockers shoot farther than any angel! And yes Alex that includes yours!
me
Believe it or not you will find that allot of the further shooting belief comes from how you hold the marker. Double vs. Single trigger frames, different drops, size of tank, etc ... all of those will influence how you hold your marker and in the end how you view the ball as its flying.
Many people will say that closed bot should be more accurate since the bolt is stationary when the shot is fires, where as a open bolt the bolt is moving forward at the time of firing ... but if this were true it would only be on the very first shot since in both cases (opened/closed) the ball is actually fired at the same moment. In both types the bolt is fully forward and the chamber sealed when the marker fires. So at this point accuracy is literally in the hands of the shooter.
Remember the military's M60 medium machine gun is fired from the open bolt and no one disputes its accuracy
other person
i have a autococker which is a closed bolt and i have a impulse which is a open bolt and my autococker is much more acuarate that my impulse and it has better distance thatn my impulse and when i shoot my impulse the balls will curve up and then come back down my cocker shoots strait. Even though i always use my impulse i will admit that my cocker is alot more. So what you say russ isnt exactly true. I have seen it myself all paintball guns shoot diferntlly and i have played with alot of differnt guns Angels, Cockers,Impulses,Bushmasters,Defients,Shockers, and Matrixs, they all shoot diferent. But a matrix shoots alot like a cocker.
me again
As a person who used to shoot autocockers since early 1993, I also used to believe this fallacy, but having been present when the case was proven (my friends physics test) it is not true. Accuracy in paintball is determined solely by paint to barrel match. All markers fire at the exact same point, with the bolt all the way forward and the breech full sealed. Assuming the both markers have an equal paint to barrel match. only user intervention can further affect accuracy.
Look at the firing cycle ...
"closed bolt"
ball enters breech => bolt closes breech => trigger pulled => ball fired from sealed breech => bolt moves back => ball enters breech
"open bolt"
ball enters breech => trigger pulled => bolt closes breech => ball fired from sealed breech => bolt moves back => ball enters breech
So what we do see from the above? The only difference is the firing sequence is when the trigger is pulled. In both cases the bolt moves forward and "shoots" the paintball down the barrel on a closed breech. Since the trigger pull is the only step that is both in a different order, and also the only step that involves human intervention it is the only portion that can affect accuracy ... this is also know as an I/D-10-T user fault ...
Using basic logic you can see that its impossible for one marker to shoot a paintball different then another since they all operate in the same capacity. A bolt with a hollow opening at the tip moves a paintball into a cylinder and then allows air to come out of the tip forcing the paintball down the cylinder.
Given that basic description you can then see that there are only four real factors that affect accuracy ....
1 -- Paint, assuming a tournament where everyone is shooting BYOP this is no longer a factor.
2 -- Air pressue behind ball, assuming everyone is using a marker that works as described above this is also no longer a factor. And unless I am mistaken that is how all markers work aside from the Ice Epic marker.
3 -- Marker control, or how well the person shooting the marker can shoot. Again assuming a bench test with both markers locked down, this is no longer a factor.
4 -- How well paint fits in the barrel, this is the now the only factor that comes into play. A ball that doesnt match the barrel will bounch in the barrel and allow more air to get past it. A ball with a good three paint match (ie three points of the shell touch the barrel) will allows less air to get around it, and also not bounce when going down the barrel. This is why you get jumps in FPS with a bad match.
I am sorry to say that all markers do fire the same way, but only differ in the trigger pull step of the firing sequence.
second person again
Even though open bolts eventually close when they are shot they have blow back which is what has efect on the balls acurracy. Closed bolts have no blow back that is what makes them more accurate than open. Insted of closed bolts using blow back to recock most of them use pnematics, that is also why closed bolts are quieter than open cuz there is no blow back. So its not the movement that the bolt makes wether it stays open or closes it is the way the air hits the ball.
me
Ah but almost all of the gas that is "blown back" goes up into the feed tube where its energy is dispersed by the ball stack. This was one of the ideas behind the air assist in the shockers and 'dreny angels ... it doesnt do anything to effect the ball in the barrel. If anything it would be more air pressure behind the ball as it flies.
You can also check out warpig which has done a similar test ... http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...osedopen.shtml ...
A similar test was also performed on an Autococker equiped with a firestorm kit, which allows the marker to shoot both open and closed bolt depending on what the user wants. Again results that were withn only a percentage point or two of each other.
I am happy to debate all day ... but my friends master is physics and my two years of physics have shown that it is just a myth and nothing more. So if you can find test results (I have given you a link to proof of one set of results) that can back up your theory please provide them.
I will also be happy to point you to the http://www.automags.org/forums where they have proven not only this, but many other paintball theorys as well.
third person
solely on paint to barrel match? surely you jest.... i will quote my brother in saying i dont care if you find a paint that matches a blade perfectly its not going to shoot as straight as ANYTHING ELSE and that is a fact... (Ive seen) accuracy and trajectory are both VERY much affected by the consistancy of the marker...
me
I really do love how people think the laws of physics and fluid dynamics dont exist in their sphere of influence. People the laws that determine how a paintball flys were written and established long before a paintball was first built ...
Time and again people have proven (Again I point you to one proof above) that paint to barrel match in addition to consistent air pressure (i.e. consistent regulator) are the only factors that effect accuracy.
But yes when it comes to accuracry its ...
1 -- Paint to barrel match, most important.
2 -- Air regulation ... same amount of air put against the ball each time, second most important.
last person
*cough*FLATLINE*cough*
me
*cough* Flatline barrel is for distance not accuracy *cough* ...
*cough* balls are usually going to slow with the flatline they bounce *cough* ...
Get yourself some cough medicine, and come back later
By that logic ... an autococker with a flatline barrel should be the most accurate marker in the game ...
Damn must of missed all those flatline autocockers at the last couple PSP/NPPL tourneys ...
Thanks,
Aaron
Anyone think of anything that I missed?
(Start of posting)
First person
I will tell you this right now that autocockers shoot farther than any angel! And yes Alex that includes yours!
me
Believe it or not you will find that allot of the further shooting belief comes from how you hold the marker. Double vs. Single trigger frames, different drops, size of tank, etc ... all of those will influence how you hold your marker and in the end how you view the ball as its flying.
Many people will say that closed bot should be more accurate since the bolt is stationary when the shot is fires, where as a open bolt the bolt is moving forward at the time of firing ... but if this were true it would only be on the very first shot since in both cases (opened/closed) the ball is actually fired at the same moment. In both types the bolt is fully forward and the chamber sealed when the marker fires. So at this point accuracy is literally in the hands of the shooter.
Remember the military's M60 medium machine gun is fired from the open bolt and no one disputes its accuracy
other person
i have a autococker which is a closed bolt and i have a impulse which is a open bolt and my autococker is much more acuarate that my impulse and it has better distance thatn my impulse and when i shoot my impulse the balls will curve up and then come back down my cocker shoots strait. Even though i always use my impulse i will admit that my cocker is alot more. So what you say russ isnt exactly true. I have seen it myself all paintball guns shoot diferntlly and i have played with alot of differnt guns Angels, Cockers,Impulses,Bushmasters,Defients,Shockers, and Matrixs, they all shoot diferent. But a matrix shoots alot like a cocker.
me again
As a person who used to shoot autocockers since early 1993, I also used to believe this fallacy, but having been present when the case was proven (my friends physics test) it is not true. Accuracy in paintball is determined solely by paint to barrel match. All markers fire at the exact same point, with the bolt all the way forward and the breech full sealed. Assuming the both markers have an equal paint to barrel match. only user intervention can further affect accuracy.
Look at the firing cycle ...
"closed bolt"
ball enters breech => bolt closes breech => trigger pulled => ball fired from sealed breech => bolt moves back => ball enters breech
"open bolt"
ball enters breech => trigger pulled => bolt closes breech => ball fired from sealed breech => bolt moves back => ball enters breech
So what we do see from the above? The only difference is the firing sequence is when the trigger is pulled. In both cases the bolt moves forward and "shoots" the paintball down the barrel on a closed breech. Since the trigger pull is the only step that is both in a different order, and also the only step that involves human intervention it is the only portion that can affect accuracy ... this is also know as an I/D-10-T user fault ...
Using basic logic you can see that its impossible for one marker to shoot a paintball different then another since they all operate in the same capacity. A bolt with a hollow opening at the tip moves a paintball into a cylinder and then allows air to come out of the tip forcing the paintball down the cylinder.
Given that basic description you can then see that there are only four real factors that affect accuracy ....
1 -- Paint, assuming a tournament where everyone is shooting BYOP this is no longer a factor.
2 -- Air pressue behind ball, assuming everyone is using a marker that works as described above this is also no longer a factor. And unless I am mistaken that is how all markers work aside from the Ice Epic marker.
3 -- Marker control, or how well the person shooting the marker can shoot. Again assuming a bench test with both markers locked down, this is no longer a factor.
4 -- How well paint fits in the barrel, this is the now the only factor that comes into play. A ball that doesnt match the barrel will bounch in the barrel and allow more air to get past it. A ball with a good three paint match (ie three points of the shell touch the barrel) will allows less air to get around it, and also not bounce when going down the barrel. This is why you get jumps in FPS with a bad match.
I am sorry to say that all markers do fire the same way, but only differ in the trigger pull step of the firing sequence.
second person again
Even though open bolts eventually close when they are shot they have blow back which is what has efect on the balls acurracy. Closed bolts have no blow back that is what makes them more accurate than open. Insted of closed bolts using blow back to recock most of them use pnematics, that is also why closed bolts are quieter than open cuz there is no blow back. So its not the movement that the bolt makes wether it stays open or closes it is the way the air hits the ball.
me
Ah but almost all of the gas that is "blown back" goes up into the feed tube where its energy is dispersed by the ball stack. This was one of the ideas behind the air assist in the shockers and 'dreny angels ... it doesnt do anything to effect the ball in the barrel. If anything it would be more air pressure behind the ball as it flies.
You can also check out warpig which has done a similar test ... http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...osedopen.shtml ...
A similar test was also performed on an Autococker equiped with a firestorm kit, which allows the marker to shoot both open and closed bolt depending on what the user wants. Again results that were withn only a percentage point or two of each other.
I am happy to debate all day ... but my friends master is physics and my two years of physics have shown that it is just a myth and nothing more. So if you can find test results (I have given you a link to proof of one set of results) that can back up your theory please provide them.
I will also be happy to point you to the http://www.automags.org/forums where they have proven not only this, but many other paintball theorys as well.
third person
solely on paint to barrel match? surely you jest.... i will quote my brother in saying i dont care if you find a paint that matches a blade perfectly its not going to shoot as straight as ANYTHING ELSE and that is a fact... (Ive seen) accuracy and trajectory are both VERY much affected by the consistancy of the marker...
me
I really do love how people think the laws of physics and fluid dynamics dont exist in their sphere of influence. People the laws that determine how a paintball flys were written and established long before a paintball was first built ...
Time and again people have proven (Again I point you to one proof above) that paint to barrel match in addition to consistent air pressure (i.e. consistent regulator) are the only factors that effect accuracy.
But yes when it comes to accuracry its ...
1 -- Paint to barrel match, most important.
2 -- Air regulation ... same amount of air put against the ball each time, second most important.
last person
*cough*FLATLINE*cough*
me
*cough* Flatline barrel is for distance not accuracy *cough* ...
*cough* balls are usually going to slow with the flatline they bounce *cough* ...
Get yourself some cough medicine, and come back later
By that logic ... an autococker with a flatline barrel should be the most accurate marker in the game ...
Damn must of missed all those flatline autocockers at the last couple PSP/NPPL tourneys ...
Thanks,
Aaron
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