AGD's marketing move

[LittlePaintballBoy]

For the guy who asked...

DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM DUUUUUUUUUM! Presenting, the TacOne!

[davidb]

Just curious.. What was it that wasn't happening... Till Now!!

[Smokee_2_7]

Some very good points and suggestions across the board. Tom, I especially thank you for you input. Looking forward to hanging out with you in orlando this year. If you rememebr, i met you with loadsm5 at mardi gras 2 years ago.

Anyway,

There are many different viewpoints expressed as to why AGD should do this, or why AGD should do that. My viewpoint is from a paintball shop guy. A few clarifications on some points i made, and some responses to them.

1. The 'RT' in rtPro.

The average customer THINKS that the X-valve is a COMPLETELY different valve system for the automag. The general consensus is that ANYTHING that has "RT" in it is automatically deemed tournamnent illegal. Of course, i then do the best i can to explain that the only difference is that the X is all AL, comes with level 10, and has "X" lazer engraved instead of RT (never mind differences in milling of the on/off area.)

The AVERAGE customer perceives it as a COMPLETELY new thing. THere is a current stigma against anything RT as far as the 'toruney minded' population goes. This is the main reason that I believe the RT should be dropped from the name. I believe that a totally new name should be chosen. ( praise for the Tac-one in this department again. . )


2. barrels with markers
I understand both sides of the argument- - stock barrle vs. no stock barrel. Right now i tend to lean with towards yes- - include a stock barrel. I think that the latest deal with J&J is a good thing. As far as people not using them? The stock X-mag barrel is the only thing ive used on my x since i've got it. I have a scepter set sitting in my gearbag, too. The last couple batches of our paint have been large. . . about .694 or 5. The stock barrel fits the paint better than any scepter insert I have (they only run to .692) It shoots darts with good paint, too. If i didnt have the stock barrel, I would be having barrel breaks all over the place right now. Same deal with my teamate's dragon timmy, too. the stock 'bob longshot'(.695) is the only thing big enough to really handle the last batch of paint- - - he's had only one or 2 barrel breaks.

I think including a LARGE bore stock barrel is a very good thing. Yes, 'average' accuracy may be improved with a smaller barrel, but at least with the stock one you are pretty much reassured that your gun can shoot any paint out there without barrel breaks. The best way to go would to be sell a 2 peice design with the gun, like bob long does with the timmies ('longshot') and wgp does with the orracle (kaner) It's possible to just purchase different sized back for the stock barrel- - - resulting in our dream paint to barrel match, without buying a whole new system.

besides, to the average customer (NOT the army of AO) it seems stupid that a gun dosent even come with a barrel. Ive had to explain that one away SEVERAL times with the classic mag. Just letting you know what ive learned from customers.

3. aftermarket appeal and customization= = = the ability to build your own mag

I think that there is a happy medium to be reached here. Any marker from the automag line is upgradable to an extent. People moan about cockers- - but who is going to buy a brand new freeflow and start switching out internals?

There will always be 'customization' available. A cooler looking mainbody. Feednecks. ball detents. triggers (need to start making some wicked looking triggers. . . chains, lightining bolts, hooks, whatever.) grips. barrels. foregrips. Even if your gun came with all of these (which pretty much ALL guns do, ) people will STILL spend money on replacments that they think look better- - - i.e. 'cash money' eye covers for the timmy. clamping feednecks. new back plates for the angel, matrix, ect. different foregrips and stuff for spyders. However, MOST of the playing population only purchases these things because they either HATE the one currently in place, the new one looks SOOO much cooler, or the gun just didnt have one in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with selling a 'complete' gun. People can always change little things out.

Rougefactor. I know where you're coming from, but with the vast majority of fields, your a little off base. Sure, i'll sell upgrades all day. You make a bit better off upgrades than you do new guns. However, thats NOT what pays the bills.

Players coming to your fields and buying paint is what pays the bills. I would MUCH rather a player leave his gun stock and actually PLAY with it every weekend as opposed to selling him some parts and peices to make his gun work better, and the player never actually be able to afford to play.

you talk of aftermarket parts voiding warranty at agd. . . try replacing the 3 way, lpr, ram, valve and hammer on a stock autococker and then try to get wgp to fix it for free. . . .


If AGD produces at least the 5 main guns in the line i "outlined" above, then they could STILL do somthing like the current 'classic'- - a 'build your own' starter kit.

I just know waaaay too many people that scooped up the TKO mag from the net, because it already came with a barrel and other goodies on it. - - the just wanted a total functioning gun.



Carl

[SpecialBlend2786]

Re: ...

Originally posted by RogueFactor


Can any dealer package their own mag with all the parts? Absolutely.

Just my $.02

I completely agree with RogueFactor here, and with Carl when he said, "I just know waaaay too many people that scooped up the TKO mag from the net, because it already came with a barrel and other goodies on it."

When i was in the market for a mag, i remember seeing that TKO mag. I also remember Skanline had a Huge product line of upgraded mags, which had tons of upgrades already added on, and had different names like that "Blackbird" and stuff. I dont think they sell 'em anymore. I have no idea why they stopped.

[davidb]

dealers arent going to push the markers.

You mean the local shops might stop their incessant pushing of AGD products?! Say it ain't so!
J/K. The fact that there wouldn't be many upgrades available could, I imagine, be countered somewhat by the fact that the shop would probably only very rarely have to do any free servicing of the gun. With maintenance intensive guns, most dealers I've talked to don't really care either way if you bought it from them or from an online/other store. From them, they sold you the gun: boom, profit, but then they have to service it for free. From another store, they get to charge for service, but without the immediate profit from the sale. A Mag, on the other hand, bought from your own store, gives an immediate profit with a very low chance that the damn fools gonna be bringing the thing in every weekend after he "fixed it".
Which is not to say that this would necessarily occur to every dealer, of course..

What should be asked is "Why arent more dealers taking it upon themselves to build their own mag packages?"
Can any dealer package their own mag with all the parts? Absolutely.
So what is stopping them?

Remember the Tux, Blackbird, etc. Automags at Skanline.com? Nobody bought them, because the cost of the aftermarket replacement parts PLUS the cost of the stock mag were being passed on to the customers, making for flashy $700 mags that were functionally the equal of a TKO. Granted those guns may not be the best example, but other dealers might be reading a bit much into that little lesson, surmising that a nice mag package simply won't sell. I think it will take at least one successful expirement by at least one intrepid company before we see this idea gaining any popularity.

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you've said, Rogue. I know from speaking to you in person and seeing your work that you are a smart guy, who knows of what he speaks. I'm just trying to do my part to make sure that all of us see both sides of all the coins, to avoid giving myself the "devil's advocate" title already ascribed to a certain other long-winded AOphile.

I would give my opinions on stock barrels, but I would basically just be restating what Smokee already wrote. Except that maybe just for the X-Mags, they could let you request (for added $ of course) a different barrel, so that you could have the option of having the barrel you actually want to USE be the one that has the matching anno. Just a thought, but it would also further add to the "custom" aura of the X-Mag, making it yet more desirable.

As for the trigger, I've been meaning to hit on that topic for I-don't-know-how-long. The only thing that's ever really been unappealing to me on the E-Mag and X-Mag has been the trigger (I don't mention the RTP because I also dislike the little bracket above the foregrip, not to mention the fact that the blade trigger actually looks good). Not the feel, or function of the trigger, just the appearance. If AGD would start releasing cool lookin' new triggers, I would be very happy indeed.

I don't think that introducing a Mag with all of the currently available upgrades would discourage people from seeking out upgrades. On the contrary, I think that it would make them go a step further to make sure that they stayed "a cut above", or "unique". I think you'd see more people buying Chords and other custom bodies. You'd see more people buying those cool new RogueFactor feednecks. You might even see some of the bigger companies like Dye and Kapp start making bodies. Heck, even Tom would probably start working on making upgrades to make the things even cooler.

[Smokee_2_7]

dang, i love a good discussion. It's nice to actually get into a conversation that has more substance to it than "'cockers shoot further. No they don't"


ANyway,

all warranty work is paid for in the price of the marker. When a company sets the price for a gun, they have to take into consideration what kind of warranty they want to offer, and wether or not they will still clear any money after the average amount of "free" work is paid for. Dosent work too well to sell a gun for a hundred bux if it (on average) will spend X hours getting free repair, which in turn may cost the company half or more of the marker's price - - - just to pay their employees to fix it!

rougefactor,

on the field and shop thing, it just depends. You're right- - there is a significant difference between fields, fields/shops, and just shops. Im trying to make suggestions that will benefit all 3. I've worked at two different paintball fields over the last couple years, North Alabama Paintball, and Xtreme Paintball. NAP (at the time I was there) did have a pro-shop, and while it had most things you could need during a day of play, and COULD get you almost anything you wanted, the retail side of things was not pushed very hard. For instance, the 'pro shop' was usually locked on saturdays during regular play. If you wanted to go in and shop, you needed to talk to the guys at the walk up window for paint/air/rental and tell them to go open up and let you in. Also, the incentives for gun purchases were not as good as those we offer at xtreme

In contrast, at xtreme Paintball, we almost ALWAYS have the pro shop opened- - 5 days a week, and is always open during saturday and sunday(when most of the field business occurs) We actually want to sell guns to people- - several incentives to make the gun purchase through the shop 'a better deal' in the long run for the customer. We strive to create a friendly atomosphere where we know even semi regular customers on a first name basis. Even though I know it's impossible, I'd LIKE to be the place where people want to come for all their paintball needs, and be able to give them competitive, reasonable prices on good quality equipment. We're just really nice like that, i guess. .


Now, package guns from dealers.

I wanted to, sooooo bad (and may still do it) to make a custom milled slug/rail combo with x valve, I or Y frame, matching foregrip, and equation barrel system- - all anodized to match. However, by the time all that is done for a 'small' scale production (i.e. 5 guns) the guns will wind up selling for close to what an Emag goes for.

Even doing 'simple' mag packages, you wind up making the cost significantly higher, and immedieatly lose sales on that gun because a customer can get (easily) faster firepower from a BKO or 'nice' electro spyder for significantly less than what they would pay for the mag!

Right now, Autocockers offer MUCH more bang for the buck in the stock gun department. Very short and light trigger, eaisly attinable high-ish rate of fire, nice matching cosmetics (except for the brass crap on the front), as well as a 'light' gun. All for about 300 to 350.

To build and sell the automag equivialnt right now would cost much more than that. Heck there's still minimags out there in the 300 range!! The trigger on these guns is much harder to shoot fast(single trig frame), and easier to short stroke. To get an 'equivilant' to the stock 03 autococker, you'd need a classic valve mag with an I frame, slug body and lightened rail (with some kind of nice milling) AND have the body and rail matching colors (at least!) There's NO way to put together a gun like that for the 300 dollar price range right now. THATS why i say the product line should be re-vamped. Dealers cant do it because the end result is MUCH more expensive than other markers in the same performance class. AND, in order to try to keep that price as low as possible, the dealer winds up making practically nothing on the gun sale- - not even enough to cover their labor costs for assembling and anodizing the marker! davidb, you right on the money with your post.

If people can get a great performer with good cosmetic appeal for a good price, they WILL continue to purchase aftermarket stuff to make their gun 'look better'- - to let them stay unique and a cut above, as davidb put it.
Right now, they stay away from the gun because it costs too much to make it look 'good' AND to bring up a 'stock' marker to the anticipated performance level. Why bother? most people will (and do) simply purchase somthing else that gives them more bang for the buck.


Carl

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Kevmaster
I think its almost pointless to sell the RT, the EmaX and the Xmag with barrels. Rarely have I gotten on AO to tell AGD what they should do here or there. A player spending $600+ (even $1500) on a marker will surely not want to play with his stock barrel, regardless of how good it is. I dont see ANYone with angels playing with a stock barrel for more than a weekend. Save the consumer some money, or put a little more in your pockets, either way, just dont waste time and effort on making a decent 'stock' barrel. becuase it is labeled as such, it will never be a part used by the player

I have to disagree, but you do have a valid point. I've done the tourney scene, and have bought into my fair share of hype. I've gone back and forth with the whole barrel kit issue. I know its proven that paint to barrel match is important. I'm not totally gonna discredit this idea (I own a freak). But I will tell you, more often than not, I use a Boomstick (Insert any quality .688 barrel here). I refuse to believe that you need bore sizes in .002 incriments from .682 up to .698.

You shouldn't need any more than 3 barrels. Small, medium and large. For this reason, I'd like to see a middle of the road, quality wise, barrel included with any top end gun. Preferably a larger bore. Now, I can inlude it in my line up of barrels. (assuming its half way decent)That way, I can match my paint to one of 3 good barrels. I do use the J&J that came with my cocker. Its a good barrel. I'd rather have 3 different bore Boomies, then any other kit, or insert set out there.

So Kevmaster, you're right. No one is gonna use some POS barrel that came with their gun. But if its a decent barrel, they'd use it.

[manike]

Originally posted by JEDI
But I will tell you, more often than not, I use a Boomstick (Insert any quality .688 barrel here). I refuse to believe that you need bore sizes in .002 incriments from .682 up to .698.

I agree. I use a .690 for everything except the hugest and smallest paints on my open bolt guns and happily shoot fools.

The only time I ever match paint to bore is to get a loose but holding fit for when I shoot my closed bolt guns (Pumps and Autococker) so that the balls don't roll out of the barrel.

For an open bolt gun, one largeish bore, half decent barrel will do for almost all occasions.

[davidb]

Re: ...

Originally posted by RogueFactor
Wouldnt the TKO qualify as successful?

Successful, yes, but not really what we're talking about. A lot of dealers will give you the option of buying a Mag with add-on upgrades. We're talking about Mag packages that use replacement-type upgrades. For example, a mag with all ULE parts, or an Omega rail, etc.

The difference, of course, is that to sell you a Mag with a barrel and foregrip, the dealer buys a Mag, barrel, and foregrip, and then sells it all. To sell you a ULE bodied mag, or an Intelli'd mag, he has to buy the parts, sell everything except what was replaced, and be stuck with the leftovers. And as far as I am aware, no really major dealers have done this successfully yet. Maybe AGD should have a special dealer section for their store where they could buy mag parts in larger numbers (i.e gimme ten I-frames, ULE rails, 2 of each color ULE body, x-valves, etc.) and then they could put on a foregrip and barrel/barrel kit of their choice.

Of course, the new RT is going to wind up with most or all of that stuff anyway, so this could all very well be a moot point.

Added: Actually this would be the perfect way for companies selling custom bodies to do things. Sell just the bodies for people who already have mags, and then offer the whole package for people who are turned off by the idea of buying a new gun only to replace all the parts..

[Smokee_2_7]

Rougefactor, very valid arguements. Im sure that you are getting first hand experience in this department from what you have going on right now (which looks great, by the way. . may possible be interested in stocking and selling some of your products in our shop, but thats a whole different discussion)

I like the way you pointed out the discrepancy in my statement- - very sharp. I must re-iterate. The TKO is an example of how package deals CAN work, but such packages are not cost effictive for small shops to assemble and sell. Additonally, Although i would consider the TKO 'successful' this is only by "automag" standards. I see FAR more new autocockers right out of the box than I do TKO mags, and WE DONT EVEN SELL 'cockers!!!!!

The TKO is just a classic (stainless body) with a barrel, bottomline, and expansion chamber. How much were those markers selling for? about 280 on paintballgear. Heck, I cant get a classic mag, add all that stuff on it, and sell it for 280 and make ANY profit whatsoever- - additionally, IF we (as a shop) could get TKO's in, I doubt very seriously we could sell them for 280- - pbg is notorious for selling things at such low prices; many times local stores cannot even get the markers for that price, let alone sell it for that much. Small dealers simply DO NOT have the money to invest into a project like producing a custom run of guns. If you have the cash to upstart the project, its one thing. If you don't, your screwed.

I agree that the implementation is more important than the concept. But you've got to have a concept before you implement it.

I agree that the dealers are the frontline salesmen. I also kind-of see what your getting at in regards to 'catering to niche dealers' . . . but not quite.

What Im encouraging is NOT that every marker come with all the top of the line components. I am suggesting that the markers come with BETTER components - - so that its not necessary for the customer to completely replace EVERY component on the gun to 'upgrade' it. The bottom end 'mags would come with a 'low end' milled ule body- - heck, maybe not even with a cuped feed neck (just a straight tube like on the E-99 or that originally came with the SFL's)
Don't sell the low end with a 'nice' (J&J or whatever) barrel. Just put a decent color matched 'tube' on it and call it good. Don't sell it with the ULT. Don't sell it with the Y-frame. Don't sell it with a blade trigger. The result will definitly be 'lower end'when compared to a marker with a beautifully matched body/rail combo, either the Y or I frame, cooler looking/ feeling triggers, nicer feednecks, X-valve, ULT, and whatnot. You still have a 'separation' in low to upper end.

Im not saying that Airgun should produce tons of custom guns- - im just saying that they should 'update' their product line so it is more appealing to the vast majority of paintball players out there. These guns would not be considered 'custom'. They would be considered stock. 'Custom' options will be available, for ANY marker that is a popular seller.

The reason that dealers cannot get the guns to sell right now is NOT because they are 'bad' guns. Its just that right now (with the exception of the new RTpros) the stock automag is NOT worth the money that you pay for it- - THATS why they are so hard to sell! Often a person comments on one of my retromags, and says that they want a gun JUST like it- - that they want to 'build it themselves' like i did. By the time that the realize the COST to do a marker like this:


They (9 times out of 10) either go buy a used mag from the net somewhere, OR decide on somthing with faster performance for a cheaper price i.e. BKO, stock impulse, ect.

If the marker marketed (whoa, that sounded neat) by AGD was gave the customer a bit more bang for the buck, they WILL sell better. I can DEFINITLY get people very interested in mags- - do it all the time. Actually selling one is a whole different ballgame. They tell me that they want one thats ALL blue (for example) with a double trigger, vert feed, and x-valve and i tell them RTpro, (provided it now comes with ULE body- - which it didnt last time i had this same conversation) PLUS a custom ano job, because the only color you can get it in stock is black or black/silver. They look at the math on the prices, and start to ask me about other guns with give them roughly the same performance, with the cosmetic appeal they are looking for, for a cheaper price.

Kevmaster,
Your conclusion I firmly agree with: that AGD's first priority should be getting their current products into the dealers hands. But, dealers won't buy unless the can sell. Making the gun's more appealing and therefore easier to sell means more products in the hands of the dealers= more sales. Also, you are correct that if AGD tries to 'do it all themselves' it will result in more waits and frustration (customer backlash). However, this backlash will be not as bad if the 're-vamp' is done gradually, as the company can handle it. You try to do it all at once, and you literally kill a small company with too much work and deadlines--- there's no way to get it all done yesterday with the means availabe.


The main point of this thread was to compliment AGD on the patch it is apparently choosing with its product line. From what I've seen over the past couple months on AO, the idea of more appealing markers with ULE bodies and other milled slugs as well as the potential of different colors and options than are currently offered seems to be exactly what AGD is doing.


DavidB, just saw one thing in your reply that i couldnt possibly agree more with- - The concept of a dearler being stuck with leftover parts after doing a custom version of a gun they aquired stock.

Funny that you pointed out that it looks as if this is the way that the RT is headed= = = EXACTLY what i was getting at with the point of this thread!

The idea of selling JUST parts (at a price that is notecably cheaper than buying the whole gun) to companies looking to produce their own 'versions' is excellent. Then, these companies offering BOTH the 'custom' gun as well as an "upgrade" kit to (i.e. body kit) to go on existing markers fills the niche of both the upgrade market AND the gun sales market.

There will always be a market for custom guns. If the gun is good and reliable, there always be people that will spend tons of money on them (duh. . take a survey of how much the average AO'er spends on upgrading their mags. . )

To increase the BASE sales of the company requires better market recgonition. Recgonition on the market requires the Plain 'ol guns (stock) to be at least a competitive performer for a competitive price to other markers in its range. The steps which it looks like AGD is taking are leading in this direction, i believe. Like i said before, WGP is currently blowing AGD out of the water on cost/ performance on the 'stock' marker. To match the performance of a stock 03 cocker, you've pretty much got to buy an RT pro. 350 vs 650-700? To the AVERAGE customer (non-AO tech-head.. . .) which one is a better deal?

1. agd makes its product line more appealing. more bang for the buck, so to speak.

2. people outside of AO (i.e the majority of the world) start to get interest in these "new" guns - - they dont' even LOOK like the automags of old, magnified by the point that they dont carry the same name- - i.e. "tac-one"

3. Sales in the shops increase because suddenly the performance/cosmetics/ price ratio of AGD guns is more competitive that it's ever been with other markers in that class.

4. More guns in customers' hands means more markets for the custom realm. More financial food to feed the custom manufacture's mouths.

5 everybody's happy. AGD sells more guns. Dealers sell more AGD guns because the customer is just more attracted to it. Custom market explodes because theres 4 times as many people shooting AGD products, that all want to have somthing 'cool' and custom done to the gun.

6. (rum and)coke and pizza for everyone. big party at tom's house, lol.



Carl

[Smokee_2_7]

The feeling is mutual. I have enjoyed it also, and am perfectly happy to agree to disagree. It's not like we're the ones running the company anyway!.

Are you going to be in orlando by any chance? I'd love to get a look at some of your new stuff you have coming out.


Carl

[davidb]

This thread really has been a breath of fresh air.

BTW Rogue, I just noticed that your post count is even lower than mine.. Granted I've been here a little longer, but still, I thought you posted at least kind of frequently. Is that number right?