The Tac-One and dealers

[Lohman446]

Ok... this seems to be its own hot topic in other topics, we have all acknowledged something about the $400 to $450 price idea of the Tac-One. I doubt this hurts AGD, I expect that to be roughly the price that AGD sells other high end mechanical markers to dealers - I have no idea.

Now I need to further state this - I am not a dealer, I do not have a large (or any) amount of money tied up into an inventory. I can discuss this on theory alone, and don't have to back it up.

I think we must also accept as a fact that the value of at very least the mechanical line of AGD markers is going to drop - I beleive this may also influence the E-mag and X-mag.

Ideas I have seen:
Make the pin necessary to go from CO2 to HPA expensive and include only the CO2 pin in the TAC-ONE. I do not think this will work as it will aleinate a lot of the market - but it had some promise. Further I would hate to break that pin in my current X-valve and have to pay $100 or something for it.

No warranty from the factory bought ones - let dealers tack on warranties. I do not like this. First I beleive AGD would fix many defects at no charge because TK would never allow a known defect to go without repair. Second dealers may be hesitant to take the risk of a warranty.

My idea - and dealers are not going to like this one.
Offer a buy-back period for all AGD markers to dealers to buy them at cost. At this point sell all markers from AGD factory direct with the same warranty now. Advantages: AGD still makes the same profit, lowers cost to consumer. More mags out there - dealers may be able to sell more repair kits for when they are needed. More mags would mean more dealers stocking mag parts.
Disadvantage: No way to go hold a mag at a dealer, buy on impulse, etc. I don't think this will hurt that bad - Mags are out there, and almost everyone who has an interest in one has had a chance to shoot one - I had a chance to shoot a Viking and an 03 shocker without ever looking in a dealers store.

Now I realize I have opened up something that many people will feel very strongly about, but I beleive it is something that will have to be resolved by AGD (though I beleive they may already have a plan). I just want to hear what others think.

[Lohman446]

Before I upset anyone too much, understand that a dealer does more than just mark up a product. They offer advise to many people, expertise that people value and gladly pay for. If they are not able to compete in the mag market they may not recommend mags as it hurts them when they don't sell it directly. Factually high end markers now are as much about personal preference as anything else, and a dealer could honestly decide not to recommend a product they cannot sell competetively. However - dealers buying them at normal consumer, could likely still mark them up $50 or so, and people would buy them on impulse to avoid the wait. I also realize this would be about 10% (a touch more) profit, and that 10% profit is generally poor in business.

[bryceeden]

Yes, a 10% markup is usually bad, but us paintball dealers usually don't make much at all on markers(mostly thanks to actionvillage.com) a $50 markup is better than most markers I have right now(anyone remember the $5.25 mark up on the Tippmann 98 custom befor the MAP came into affect) The thing is alot of people won't pay for the service of a dealer, they want it as low as the net, even if the difference is only five to ten dollars. I would have no problem at all selling the Tac-One at even a $30 profit. Now before all the dealers out there argue with me please keep in mind out here in Utah most everyone use to buy from the net until us local stores started matching the prices they saw there. My profit is on paint and air, not on markers.

[Lohman446]

Most brick and mortar (non-internet based) businesses (with normal cash flow, overhead considerations) need to make at least an average of 30% to 35% to pay expenses and make a reasonable profit. There are exceptions of course, but this is the normal number if I recall correctly. I once worked in management at a store where NOTHING went through through the store that did not have at least a 20% mark up and that was how it was.

[Meph]

Maybe for you bryceeden, but with the markup we have we offer a warranty above and beyond the manufacturer. If people buy from us, we take care of them.

However, they buy off the net.... they're out of luck as far as a warranty. We're charging for every repair they want done down to the last O-ring.

We support those who support us. If somebody wanted to save 10 bucks then so be it. I'm not going to force somebody into purchasing something, and I don't shove gimmicks/hype down their throat to change their idea of what they want so I can sell current inventory. If I had 15 mags on the wall and they have their heart set on an autococker, then I'd be getting them a cocker. I'd be sure to offer suggestions and my input and experience. But if they don't want it then so be it.


What do I think about the Tac-One being factory direct. Well won't be the first time AGD is underselling me apparently. Now I'm not so sure if I'm shocked at the announcement. From a store's standpoint I flat out think is sucks balls. One step in the wrong direction.

I'm not talking about mag re-sale value. Who cares, welcome to paintball. Resale in this sucks, always has and always will. (Hell I'm probably going to sell my 'cocker soon just so I can save some face from it) I'm talking about brand new products that now I might have trouble unloading after they say, "But I can get the Tac-One factory direct with all these and those goodies, how can you charge that much for this?"

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Meph
) I'm talking about brand new products that now I might have trouble unloading after they say, "But I can get the Tac-One factory direct with all these and those goodies, how can you charge that much for this?"

Meph I need to agree with everything you said, and bring this part out of it. How do you think AGD should deal with this - offer an at cost buyback of your current inventory (bought from them)? I have no clue on AGDs financial standing and if they can do this or not. I think your right, a lot of dealers are going to get hurt, its not just the resale value that is about to topple - its the new sale value as well. Can't get $550 for the RTP if the Tac-One sells at $450 (I think). Ideas?

[Meph]

No, AGD is a business not a repo-house. They shouldn't need to buy back inventory that's not their job. Because they shouldn't be doing stuff that would make me need to have inventory bought back. They make good products, no disputing that. I just think the marketing/feedback aspect is ignored or shoved aside more than it should be. And I'm talking well beyond the box color!

I dunno. I'm not going to say **** about this for a while. Just going to sit back and watch what happens. I've been up since 5am and I gotta get some sleep.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Meph
No, AGD is a business not a repo-house. They shouldn't need to buy back inventory that's not their job. Because they shouldn't be doing stuff that would make me need to have inventory bought back. They make good products, no disputing that. I just think the marketing/feedback aspect is ignored or shoved aside more than it should be. And I'm talking well beyond the box color!

I'm not a dealer, I like this thing selling for that low ball figure. That being said I can appreciate your problem. Those of us who are going to loose resale value on what is, in essence, a toy can get over it pretty easy. Those of you who have to deal with an inventory are... well in a a different situation.

Originally posted by Meph

I dunno. I'm not going to say **** about this for a while. Just going to sit back and watch what happens. I've been up since 5am and I gotta get some sleep.

Proof yet again that many people on AO are much smarter than I am, you know when its best to sit back and think rather than talk... of course that makes debates a little boring.

[Smokee_2_7]

bryceeden, same way in alabama, my friend. I hear ya, and agree with you on the markup. Gun sales DO NOT pay the bills


Meph, Im with you too. We offer complete labor warranties on every marker we sell. However, many people still choose to buy off the net, simply because its 15 bucks cheaper. We charge them for all repair work. We do our best to take care of those that take care of us as well.

I do not like the fact that the dealers may be cut out of the loop completely. I also think that, while there is alot i could say, its best at this point to hang back for a little bit and see how this goes.


Carl

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by Lohman446
Before I upset anyone too much, understand that a dealer does more than just mark up a product. They offer advise to many people, expertise that people value and gladly pay for. If they are not able to compete in the mag market they may not recommend mags as it hurts them when they don't sell it directly. Factually high end markers now are as much about personal preference as anything else, and a dealer could honestly decide not to recommend a product they cannot sell competetively. However - dealers buying them at normal consumer, could likely still mark them up $50 or so, and people would buy them on impulse to avoid the wait. I also realize this would be about 10% (a touch more) profit, and that 10% profit is generally poor in business.

Correct...almost. A 10% profit + shipping costs from the factory=-5%. You see how many I am gonna order right?

[AGD]

First of all how many dealers do you think we have? How many stock our guns? Not as many as you think. Most of our stuff sells through online places like PBgear and 888.

If you go look on the store our intelliframe sells for less than our MSRP on that product. That was a test to see how many dealers it would aggrivate. In almost a year only one dealer mentioned it.

How come no one abandoned Angels when they overnight dropped their price to 850? I remember PBgear selling off stock at super discounts from what they paid.

Once we get volume up then we can put in a dealer margin.

AGD

[Kevmaster]

Re: ...

Originally posted by RogueFactor
To give you an idea of how messed up the wholesale structure of the paintball industry is...

Costco/Sam's Club typiclly work on a 20-30% profit margin. They can only go this low due to sales volume.

then again our paint margins easily hit 100% in some areas and air profits...lets not even go there (I can get over 1000% profit on a tank of co2)

[Lohman446]

I posted this elsewhere, it really belongs here - the comment was made that dealers are needed... my reply was

Why?

My question - now first, flesh and blood dealers offer something that is well worht the markup they take on the sale. They offer expertise, warranty without sending in for minor repairs (o-rings type things), and immediate availability - as well as many other things.

However, the dealer system is based on an outdated system where such things as the internet, chat forum advice, and second day shipping were not available. Why do online dealers undercut brick and mortar dealers? Because it does not take as much work to sell on line as it does in person, not as much space, not as many employees, and not as much overhead.

I am not questioning any of the dealers abilities, nor their right to make a living selling markers. However, the thread I started devoted to dealers on this seems to indicate that selling a marker is not an overly profitable aspect of the business.

All I am leaning towards, is if AGD is going to sell one, why not all directly at the reduced prices? Prices are going to have to come down on the mechanical mags to compete with low end electros - because not everyone is willing to pay for the quality.

Now I need to add this - people are not going to wait two days to buy groceries, gas, things that they live on everyday. However, this is a paintball marker, a good share are sold on line anyways and people have to wait. If AGDs major dealers are online sources, why not cut them out of the loop, make about the same profit margin, and sell more due to the reduced price. AGD has the technical ability to set up an online ordering system - there use of bandwidth will of go up... Now the other comment I heard was what about those without the internet, or a credit card. Dealers have the chance to be in the loop again... for those very few sales. MOre and more people have a credit card (with bank check cards) and more and more people have the internet. I beleive that online direct factory marketing is a key in furture sales.

Please note what may be a flaw in my reasoning. I am assuming that a lowered price WILL sell more markers - this is not proven (as logical as it sounds it does not always work that way). We are all assuming that.

BTW - dealers, most of you make a profit margin that cannot justify the sale of markers (or so it seems from what your stating). How much would this actually hurt you?

[shartley]

I'm not talking about mag re-sale value. Who cares, welcome to paintball. Resale in this sucks, always has and always will. (Hell I'm probably going to sell my 'cocker soon just so I can save some face from it) I'm talking about brand new products that now I might have trouble unloading after they say, "But I can get the Tac-One factory direct with all these and those goodies, how can you charge that much for this?"

[cledford]

Originally posted by shartley

This brings up a great point. The Tac1 is going to be heavier then the RTP due to the body. Add some more weight - mill less out of the Intelli (preserve the reason to purchase an Intelli - not get one for "free"), make a solid foregrip - raise the weight a couple ounces anywhere you can. Tthose scenario guys aren't going to care as long as it looks cool -heck they strap about 10 pounds extra on the markers anyhow - then shave everything off of the RTP. This will make the 2 lines more distinct and provide benefit for the additional cost for the RTP. Want a kick butt scenario gun? Buy a Tac1. Want a kick butt speedball gun that doesn't require batteries? Buy an RTP. Want a mid range Electro? Buy an Emag. Want a high end Electro? Buy a Xmag.

You get my point. The mags are a little clumped together right now and need distinct personalities of their own. Each with it's own unique advantages. Some people will buy one of each, others will buy all of the parts to build any variation off of one valve (the valve being the "chassis") - the point is that PEOPLE ARE BUYING.

Heck I say take this even further. Gloss anodized the ULE stuff then call it the "Pro line" for "tournament play and fast paced, flashy speedball." The flat black, chunky "high speed gear" is "built to last" and is the "TAC" line. The Electros go into another category. My point is that it is AWESOME that all of the AGD parts (for the most part) are interchangeable - but give them identity as well. Make them distinct - color, weight, and a collective name will do this!

-Calvin