What is the price of your soul??!!

[LaW]

Originally posted by cphilip




But I hope they realize its a job now and they may have to do what their sponsors expect them to do more than they were used to. As long as they realize with the money comes responsibility and they now may not always get everything their way, then great. Good for them! They did what any of us would do and took the job that offered the most money.

This is exactly what I feel. This will go for all the future teams that get this kind of job as well and it will happen.

[shartley]

Originally posted by LaW



This is exactly what I feel. This will go for all the future teams that get this kind of job as well and it will happen.

And I agree as well. And no more blaming bad behavior and cheating on "pressures" and such. If you are up to this level of play and this level of sponsorship, then act like the Professionals they are being PAID to be.

I see this as a good thing for paintball at this level.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by shartley

And I agree as well. And no more blaming bad behavior and cheating on "pressures" and such. If you are up to this level of play and this level of sponsorship, then act like the Professionals they are being PAID to be.

I see this as a good thing for paintball at this level.

Ah well thats another interesting twist there... Good only if we are assuming the Sponsor (employer) feels he wants honesty and integrety as a benchmark for emplyoee's rather than winning at all cost! There is the Ricky isn't it? Remains to be seen. Let's hope so.

[LaW]

Originally posted by cphilip


Ah well thats another interesting twist there... Good only if we are assuming the Sponsor (employer) feels he wants honesty and integrety as a benchmark for emplyoee's rather than winning at all cost! There is the Ricky isn't it? Remains to be seen. Let's hope so.

Oh man winning at all costs was the whole smart parts thing of past as well you have to be worried about that and keeping the integrity of a "professional" team. The AA's were known as huge cheaters years ago, that is what I remember at least I could be wrong.

[shartley]

Originally posted by cphilip


Ah well thats another interesting twist there... Good only if we are assuming the Sponsor (employer) feels he wants honesty and integrety as a benchmark for emplyoee's rather than winning at all cost! There is the Ricky isn't it? Remains to be seen. Let's hope so.

[cphilip]

Well see? There is a general assumption that a Paintball Sponsor would be more interested in integrety than in winning. I have seen little evidence of that lately from some of them. And in fact I am very concerned they will not be the emphasis. If they are not then taking a team and paying them well to win at all costs to include cheating... and then that same team gets looked up to by all the new kids in Paintball...well you can see how bad THAT would be for Paintball?

Now on the other hand if they manage them as carefull honest role models and then people see not cheating and being good without it pays then its WONDERFULL.

But no one knows which way this is going to go. So lets not proclaim it a great day in Paintball until we see how both sides of that new marrage behave.

[LaW]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well see? There is a general assumption that a Paintball Sponsor would be more interested in integrety than in winning. I have seen little evidence of that lately from some of them. And in fact I am very concerned they will not be the emphasis. If they are not then taking a team and paying them well to win at all costs to include cheating... and then that same team gets looked up to by all the new kids in Paintball...well you can see how bad THAT would be for Paintball?

Unfortunately it is already becoming evident that this "cheating" thing is being accepted by younger people. I have seen more posts lately by younger people on the topic of cheating saying along the lines that if you were hit off the break or at a crucial time and could slide into a bunker to wipe you would do it. Or along the whatever it takes to win you would wipe/cheat whatever. And I am really disturbed by hearing this and there is nothing you can say to these kids to change their mind it seems.

[cphilip]

Exactly! And half the responses here we see are "everyone does it". And so what negative publicity is generated to a Sponsor if they cheat? Not much. Not like other sports. The problem here is we have sponsors generating the ethics now. Not a strong leauge that can administer disipline. Paintball is not ready for the big time in this respect because it has not Teeth outside of greed. It is totaly open to being taken to a place that kills it. We need a strong league with rules in place to counter that. Like other sports do. And without it we are at the mercy of the integrety of Paintball Companies. I do not think there is that much of it there to tap. If I was a Paintball Company, and I can sell you stuff because I got the meanest nastiest ugly cheaters on the block... I am going to. And there is not much there to stop me as it is. Take a look at Football or Basketball. If I as a League ban somone for cheating or drugs his sponsors fall away from him as fast as they can. In paintball they may RUN TO THEM. Totaly not ready for this. And thats my concern.

[Lohman446]

As for being optimistic about this...

SP has not, in the past, shown that they are for advancing the sport of paintball, they have shown they are for advancing there own business. Now I make no judgement if this is right or wrong, they are probably going to outlive a good number of companies that looked towards advancing the sport and not towards their own business. I also make no claim that this is necessarily true, just a possibility.

Now take Dynasty - face it, the reputation that they have is winning at all costs. Again I do not personally agree, but they have gotten somewhere where many people want to be first. They succeeded at that at least.

Somehow I don't see a relationship that brings up sportsmanship as a great moral example in the works here.

The other side of the coin, from people who would "wipe". They compare it to holding in football, or fouls in basketball. While I do not agree with this, there is a reasonable line of logic behind it. How many professional football teams would not hold, chop block, (whatever the hell the other football penalties are), in order to win.

It still comes back to the same point, regardless of your moral opinion on the entire issue I do not see this relationship being about anything more than winning.

[JKW]

Ok, great discussion!
To put a little perspective on Dynasty's deal, here is some info that may or may not be known. I heard that Dynasty approached a MAJOR force in the paintball scene with a marker sponsorship request/proposal that is reported to be very close to the Smart Parts deal. This other entity wanted Dynasty to also include their new clothing line (and maybe their barrels? ) in the deal but Dynasty wanted to pursue, or was locked into, another deal for a clothing sponsor, and passed. Now, I have heard that this "other" marker was Dynasty's first choice for what they wanted to be shooting next season, already having some components from these markers grafted into several of their Angels. But still, they passed. I think that (remember this is speculation on my part) Dynasty knew that the answer to continued success was to be better prepared through constant devotion to paintball, with as few outside distractions as possible. By being smart enough to go for the money that might support a full time commitment to playing and training, Dynasty goes a step towards legitimizing paintball in general. They have raised the bar, and if their plan is a success, other sponsors will have to step up and figure out a way to have their teams compete. If they cannot afford to support a team at this level they will either be forced to bow out, step up the exposure (more mainstream avenues maybe?) or quality of their products to increase sales, or look to co-sponsor with someone that has deep pockets. Heck, this could be the first step in bringing that non paintball sponsor we would all love to see. I mean, how much of a burden would it be on Pepsi to co-sponsor a full time NXL team with National? Not much. Please do not flame me. I know none of the Dynasty players and can not speak for them. I am only remarking on what I have heard and seems reasonable. And remember, this is just my take.

As far as cheating goes. Less cheating will not be what creates the mass exposure for paintball. I think rather that it is the other way around. As tournament paintball becomes more legit, cheating will begin to drop off I think. One had to only attend a NXL event to see the difference a more professional approach to managing cheating makes. While it may be more evident from the pit areas, with the teams (where I was fortunate enough to be), blatant cheating is becoming something that is frowned upon. I heard players and coaches screaming at their teammates over penalties levied for rule infractions. I heard, more than once, things like, "THIS IS THE NXL!! YOU CAN'T GET AWAY WITH THAT CRAP HERE!! Does it still happen? Sure. Are the rules still bent to their maximum? Sure. But teams are not nearly as willing to take the risk and play down a man (for up to ten minutes!), nor are individual players as quick to make a decision that might bring the entire team down on their heads. Again, just my take.

[Sir_Brass]

I agree with that. The next major step in legitimizing paintball is to make it so that the leagues are the ones in control. A strong league who only uses independant, trained, AND QUALIFIED refs who will be fined and penalized for intentionally overlooking rule infractions (just like in other pro sports), AND a policy of strict regulation enforcement will be what solidifies the sport. You HAVE to have a strong league and strong rules to adhere to for people to start taking the sport seriously. I mean, if pball gets legitimized, we'll have more TV coverage, and we'll soon see armchair refs like we do in soccer, football, etc., and if these fans see rule infractions overlooked on a regular basis or just bad behavior instead of the sport, they're eventually going to get sick of watching and just turn on the hockey game.

For pball to be legit, we have to have a league that is in control of it's teams and ensures fair and professional play.

I saw the x-ball video yesterday and saw JUST that: professional paintball. Boy was I IMPRESSED! I saw the 300 FPS preview video and I saw was immature, unsportsmanlike conduct. Guess which video I thought showed real professionals . Yup.

The way I see it, the NXL will be the first legit (in the public eye) paintball league. The NXL seems to be on the road to outside cosponsorship faster than the NPPL by far, and will be until the NPPL cleans up it's act and starts to emulate the things that the NXL is doing right.

[G-Rock]

I will have to agree with JKW on this also.

Chris

PS...it will be interesting to see what the new products coming out for the timmys are...

[50 cal]

Just call it natural progression.
When you get good enough, you can call your own shots, and that's what Dynasty did. I say "More power to them". If they can do it and had enough time and effort to get to that level, no one should rain on their parade.
They made time to practice, practice, practice. Sure they had sponsors, so do a lot of other teams. Other teams just lack the dedication that Dynasty has to mke it where they are now.

Now if they can just quit acting like 5 year olds when they don't get thier way. Maybe paintball can become mainstream. I don't see it happening though, too many hot heads that like to cuss, throw thier guns and stupid crap like that.

Off my soapbox now. Back to our regularly scheduled program already in progress.

[50 cal]

Originally posted by LaW



The AA's were known as huge cheaters years ago, that is what I remember at least I could be wrong.

I was a head ref for Jim Lively at the Masters that was held in Nashville for years. The AA's were the worst for "bending the rules". When you called 'em on it, you got the wide eyed "Gee, I didn't know" looks. It was pretty comical. I always gave the max penalty for major rules violations. As a matter of fact, Bob Long hated to be on my field also!
You have to rule with an iron hand as a head ref, I held no affiliation to any teams at the time, so I didn't care what they thought of me. Sponsors of tourneys shouldn't let teams ref together. Sure they know each other and work together, but it's bad news to have them ref as a unit. I've had ref teams split apart because they were on the same team. It caused a lot of flak to me, but then again.....I DIDN'T CARE. They don't come home with me, or help me pay my bills. That is the way reffing should be done.

Sorry to get off topic.

[Sir_Brass]

You have to rule with an iron hand as a head ref, I held no affiliation to any teams at the time, so I didn't care what they thought of me.

Paintball needs to have ALL it's refs be like that: independant, iron fisted, and impartial. You know pball refs are doing a good job once the jokes about refs start flowing. Just think about the jokes and jives umpires in baseball get, or the stuff done to refs by mascotts at bball games (the gags and such). It's b/c people hate to get caught doing something they shouldn't, but that's what a ref's JOB is. And on the whole, people appreciated it: when the opposing team violates a rule and the ref calls them on it, everyone loves the ref, but when the ref does the same to their team when their team violates a rule, then they hate the ref. Not really, but the jokes start to fly.

I don't see that in pball, and it concerns me, b/c it tells me that refs aren't doing a good job on the whole. However, if you hire them and pay them to be independant, iron fisted and anal on the rules, then make sure ref's get punished for overlooking violations (like in other pro-sports), then pball will begin to be more credible.