34bps?! What?!

[bofh]

Originally posted by PigSweat
I don't care what everyone else says, your boards obviously work.

Perhaps you should read the posts before you dismiss "what everyone else says."

[cledford]

Bounce issue...

I've got an actual question for Jim :) On my Equalizer (yep I've got one) when I set the debounce to 5ms I can only pull at 9-10 balls per second. when I set it at 1ms I get 19bps. I've seen a guy at PB Nation who's counter shows 34bps.

Where's the difference coming from? My gun is essentially in full auto with like 5-8 shots per pull. I don't believe he's remotely coming close to pulling 34 times a second - so am convinced he is using bounce - why is his number so much higher? Different tolerances in the switches?

-Calvin

[PigSweat]

Originally posted by bofh


Perhaps you should read the posts before you dismiss "what everyone else says."

Why? I've seen them work, I don't pretend to know or care how they work, just that they do.

Ignorance is bliss.

[WickedAirSportz]

Cledford,

Every microswitch is different. One thing that Bob mentioned to me is that he has seen a marker at the shop have absolutely no multiple shots occuring at 1ms Debounce, where another marker will be like full auto at 5ms. If you can only pull the trigger 9-10 times per second at 5ms, then at 20ms, you won't see any difference either. The marker's recoil can occur quickly enough to "repull" the trigger if the Debounce setting is too low. "Debounce" is not actually a switch debounce in the normal sense (although the feature was named this in the beginning because that was the original intention and I just left the name as-is). The Debounce not only does the electrical debouncing of the switch, it also is a delay period where the trigger input is completely ignored. If you have a board prior to v2.0, the trigger is not even monitored during the cycling. At v2.0 I changed so that the trigger is monitored during the cycle because it is possible to pull the trigger faster than 40ms between pulls.

There really needed to be a way to adjust the switch electronically to compensate for the mechanical differences.

Yes, that really is 34 times per second it is firing. The shot counter increments at the END of the firing sequence, meaning after the bolt has returned. I met Maraurder at the World Cup and he explained how he did it. It's akward, but it works... and its all for showing off.

People can pull the trigger fast though. The Platinum player Mike Williams took a picture of his display at 22bps (shooting paint), and that is with the trigger setup so there are no multiple shots. Obviously, you can't sustain this rate (I don't believe anyways), but I can hit 18bps myself and empty a hopper in 10 seconds or less, all with a completely legal trigger setup (one pull = one shot).

[NightStalker]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


Where is a CLEAN video of the Emag shooting 25 bps?

Good question.. Seems the links are dead now.. does anyone still have the videos so we can maybe repost them?

I noticed though that the sound data in the thread is still there showing that it was doing 24.5 bps but those darn vid links are busted again

and the thread I'm talking about is this one of course :)

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45932&highlight=25+bps

and I can't remeber how CLEAN these were but they at least they exisit....

[bofh]

Originally posted by PigSweat
Why? I've seen them work, I don't pretend to know or care how they work, just that they do.

Ignorance is bliss.

Actually my point was, nobody has said that they don't work better than anybody else's product. If you actually read, you would know that.

"Ignorance is Bliss", however, is a perfectly acceptable stance. Just not a common one for a people on a forum to share information.

[FrAuStY]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz


Where is a CLEAN video of the Emag shooting 25 bps?

Ask and you shall receive.. here's two.. I don't have the software at work to analyze and PROVE it myself.. perhaps someone else with resources such as sound forge xp or other audio software can analyze and check it.

http://us.share.geocities.com/roby6298/MOV00002.mpeg

http://us.share.geocities.com/roby6298/MOV00003.MPG

and for grins, a dryfire at 30 bps...

http://us.share.geocities.com/roby6298/MOV00001.MPG (EDIT FORGOT LINK )

All courtesy of www.butters.org

Even if it's not 25 its 24. Still waiting..(after 3 months) for some video of yours pulling these numbers.

Still this was not my point by asking to see your vids.., we all here know that the EMAG is so far the fastest "Proven" marker so let's not make this an emag vs timmy conversation.

My point was you never follow through with accurate REAL info. It's always subtle changes on your responses to make it sound good, aka "HYPE". I am yet to see anything from you that we can analyze. Give me a link... if you can prove yourself without saying "Joe Schmoe will tell you I'm not lying" garbage, I will change my views.. until then.. you're in a pretty deep hole.

[WickedAirSportz]

These are not very clear videos. I would like to see the originals if possible. In the first video, I can see at least one ball break (cloud of green).

I have not put these through any type of sound analysis, but they sound like the 22-26 bps rate that we are getting with a fast Intimidator.

[CRog075]

Jeese you automag ppl get so upset wwhen a gun fires faster than a mag or if just plain fires fast

I agree with Jim though. Not alot of people know about mags and stuff, because they are not used much by tourny players.

[Jonno06]

and people wonder why we dont have stupid flames like they have over on PBN everyday much here..

BECUASE WE GET PROOF!!!!

i like when cliffio said,"dude,i totally just got 45bps,but i had no paint,and my camera had dead batteries"

it toally shows how easy it is for these stupid PBN'ers to talk out of their butts..

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by CRog075
Jeese you automag ppl get so upset wwhen a gun fires faster than a mag or if just plain fires fast

Well, JEEEEZE, all you Non-Automag people get all whiney and defensive when asked for proof.

The only reason these threads degenerate into Automag vs. the world is that the Automag is the only gun out there with videos and data backing up the claims. So when the people who hype their claims and refuse to provide even one shread of proof beyond I told you so, all that can be done is to say we want a video or readout like one of the automag ones. There have also been some good videos and data of Racegun set ups doing high ROF (16-18 bps I believe).

[SlartyBartFast]

Sorry for the Length of This One.....

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
The Debounce feature of the Equalizer does not handle just your typical switch debouncing, it also is a delay period required after the switch oscillation stops to prevent the recoil from repulling the trigger.

Alright then. Pneumatic action/gun recoil might have an effect on the switch. It would seem to me this is another of the cute paintball theories that cannot be proven or disproven. All it does is add another variable into the error detected by the switch. Whether the 'noise' is electro mechanical (and I'll take your lack of comment as agreement with the rest of my post) or due to the recoil making the gun/trigger move in the player's hand the result is the same. Debounce is ONLY a delay period during which switch activity is ignored. I won't belabour the point further.

If everything else I posted is sound then it seems you're proven wrong. Will you address the other issues I and others have raised or will you ignore them?

The ludicrousness of saying debounce settings help you legalise/dial in an illegal trigger but that the settings are not usable in tournaments?

The obvious charge that Debounce can more readily be used to dial a trigger to illegality? And let's look at that claim further. After all, if debounce was never adjustable and allowed for a sufficient firing rate there is no need to adjust it other than to make a trigger illegal? What is the default debounce delay? At 10ms you're allowing trigger/firing rates close to 100bps before debounce would interfere. Therefor, the ONLY practical application of playing with debounce is to flirt with inducing switch bounce but maintaining the marker controllable.

Manike's accusation of illegal setups being pulled at the World Cup? Bill Cookston trying to get two shots is not a reliable test. And you say he allows the occasional doubleshot?!?! That means the 'TEST' is totally haphazard. How can he tell if the double shot is due to gun recoil or the electromechanical operation of the switch? (I suppose he was provided with the prototype Psychi-Link that's soon to be available for all WAS boards. )

PACT chrono's not being usable for BPS measurements? Oh yea, you'll "see where you stand".

And here's a WAS classic:

...it would be foolish for ME to prove this. I already know the results. You don't even need a chrono to get the results, just use a digital storage scope and watch the dwell time.

You have got to be kidding. In virtually every endevour it is up to the person making the claims to provide the proof. Then, if the nay-sayers disagree it is up to them to repeat the test with the same conditions and show their results or for them to demonstrate why the test procedure was invalid. Because you dreamed up/formulated your desired results in your head is not proof. Any respectable inventor/tinkerer would WANT to prove and test his work. If it's so easy to take the readings and do the tests then do them. Any way you cut it, refusing to do so or denying the need only raises suspicions and absolutely proves you're not interested in hard facts or data.

These are not very clear videos. I would like to see the originals if possible. In the first video, I can see at least one ball break (cloud of green).

This gets ridiculous. WAS doesn't have to provide any proof or evidence, but the evidence posted by others has to meet his standards? So get off your back end and make a video of a fast intimidator shooting 22bps. We WILL put it to analysis and then we'll see how much of the HYPE stands up. If the EMagnum had a ball break, then we won't jump on your equalizer if it has one, and as long as your video is as clean as the EMagnum or HALOB videos we'll accept them.

I have not put these through any type of sound analysis, but they sound like the 22-26 bps rate that we are getting with a fast Intimidator.

We've probably all heard of perfect pitch for identifying musical tone, but for identifying rythm up to 29/second? I suppose the oscilloscope readings you refuse to provide and the tests you refuse to share are all correct to your standard of "sounds like" and "looks like"? Seems to me that's the only way you "know the results".

[NightStalker]

Originally posted by WickedAirSportz
These are not very clear videos. I would like to see the originals if possible. In the first video, I can see at least one ball break (cloud of green).

I have not put these through any type of sound analysis, but they sound like the 22-26 bps rate that we are getting with a fast Intimidator.

If you look at the post that I put in

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45932&highlight=25+bps

It was already done for you

*sigh*

[CRog075]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Well, JEEEEZE, all you Non-Automag people get all whiney and defensive when asked for proof.

The only reason these threads degenerate into Automag vs. the world is that the Automag is the only gun out there with videos and data backing up the claims. So when the people who hype their claims and refuse to provide even one shread of proof beyond I told you so, all that can be done is to say we want a vidoe or readout like one of the automag ones. There have also been some good videos and data of Racegun set ups doing high ROF (16-18 bps I believe).

Actually, I used to have a automag, and my shot a rt, nothing special.

[WickedAirSportz]

If everything else I posted is sound then it seems you're proven wrong. Will you address the other issues I and others have raised or will you ignore them?

That's a problem with many people here. If I don't respond, I am "proven wrong". If I respond with 100% accurate information, I am wrong. You want proof, I provide a method for YOU to get it, as I don't feel it is necessary to provide you anything more than that.

At 10ms you're allowing trigger/firing rates close to 100bps before debounce would interfere.

Wrong! You are assuming that the Debounce is a standard electrical debounce. This is not the case. Perhaps I should rename this feature to "trigger sensativity" or "recoil sensativity".

You have got to be kidding. In virtually every endevour it is up to the person making the claims to provide the proof.

Not this endevour. I provide the information about how to obtain the proof, that way you can do it yourself. I can "fake" anything - video, audio, anything. Anyone with my background could easily produce a video showing a pump gun being shot at 25bps, and it would look real. I have already been down the "show us the video" road in the past with computer hardware and software... its simply too easy to post numbers and video that would not be real. Believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see. :)

Any respectable inventor/tinkerer would WANT to prove and test his work.

Absolutely, and we have done so.

Any way you cut it, refusing to do so or denying the need only raises suspicions and absolutely proves you're not interested in hard facts or data.

No, it means that I am not interested in pacifying this group. :)

So get off your back end and make a video of a fast intimidator shooting 22bps

Where have you been? There was a video of this about 5 months ago. It was analyzed by someone from this group and reported as 22bps... do a search.

If the EMagnum had a ball break, then we won't jump on your equalizer if it has one

I would have a fit if there was a broken ball due to the Equalizer. :)