An Interesting Thought on how to Control the ROF with Cheater Boards

[krafty]

How about this:

Every new paintball gun that a manufacturer wants in the tourney circuit comes equipped with a standardized jack/port (mini phono, something similar) that accesses the trigger switch loop. You can then hook up a small box to generate trigger pulses at a specific ROF and check that ROF over a chrono - or generate a specific number of shots. If they don't match, toss'em.

[Python14]

Okay, how about they do it like they do before tests in my math class. Make the programs on a gun eraseble. Before each game/tournament, officials erase every electros mem. and reload a program that has 20 BPS, and no measurable trigger bounce. Triggers can be adjusted anyway possible, as long as they don't interferre with trigger bounce. At the end of the tournament, players can reload their own programs from their computers.

It's quick, simple, and fair. No one has a different program.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by krafty
How about this:

Every new paintball gun that a manufacturer wants in the tourney circuit comes equipped with a standardized jack/port (mini phono, something similar) that accesses the trigger switch loop. You can then hook up a small box to generate trigger pulses at a specific ROF and check that ROF over a chrono - or generate a specific number of shots. If they don't match, toss'em.

That's almost exactly what I said :-) It's cheap, easy, and allows multiple avenues of testing.

[hitech]

Re: An Interesting Thought on how to Control the ROF with Cheater Boards

Originally posted by AGD
Players before the event, or maybe after a particular game, would shoot this particular marker over a speed crono and record their highest FOR REAL BPS rating...If the player is found to be shooting past their pre-tested limit they forfeit the game.

I would forfeit EVERY game. There is NO way I could equal my adrenaline enhanced tournament game ROF at the chrono. NO WAY. I wouldn't even get close. Besides, how would you determine who was responsible for the ROF being recorded? Match sound signatures of each marker?

[hitech]

Originally posted by nerobro


That's almost exactly what I said :-) It's cheap, easy, and allows multiple avenues of testing.

The cheater board I proposed would NOT be detected by that.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by Python14
I think the only way to get around cheater boards is to just get the experts(not jim drew)and randomly audit any guns that the refs feel may be possibly cheating. Have the folks who know the electronics like they know their hands to load up the gun software and check it. If any gun is found to be "cheating" through this audit, then the entire team forfits the tournament. Just simply make the punishment so harsh that the crime is no longer worth the risk. Draconian law.

I think that we can all agree that reffing leaves a lot to be desired, even on a good day. You can set up all the rules you want, but if you need refs to enforce them, you will have problems. This proposal puts way too much power and responsibility in the hands of the refs.

Refs already have the power to penalize a team on 3 for 1. Anyone who has ever watched a tournament will see offenses that merit such a penalty, but I do not remeber the last time that penalty was actually used. The most I have ever seen is a 1 for 1 and this was for blatant wiping where a teammate wiped a hit off the guy next to him.

I guess what I am saying is that no matter what sort of enforcement mechanism you come up with, if you have people enforce it, there will be problems. Randomly auditing guns is not the answer because it will be the refs who choose when and who gets audited.

Ogre

[punkncat]

An important aspect is being missed here.
Organizers , and paint manufacturers do not want you to cap ROF.If you take more shots to hit the same targets , why would they want you to stop?Dollar signs fly every shot you take.Slowing ROF cuts into their profit margin.

I do like the hopper idea mentioned before, but what would that do for the Warp,the Halo?

[logamus]

personally, i dont see anything wrong with allowing turbo or even fa. since everyone goes on an on how its the player and not the marker i dont see what the big deal is. unless of course there is something to be said for the marker and that it does play some role in the players ability.

[cledford]

I'm no expert on sound capture - but would think it hard to isolate an individual during play. If there is just a blanket "someone was shooting over Xbps, so you lose points" rule it might be easier but you'd then have no way to satisfy appeals or challenges.

I say the following:

A) Limit paint, don't worry about ROF or bounce. Limited paint would add a tactical dimension to the game that doesn't even exist currently. Even better - make "dead" players drop their packs on the field so the who ever gets their paint first has a "bonus."

B) Go back to limiting feeders. Although I'd hate to hurt Warp sales, if players were only allowed feeders that worked on gravity then the ROF issue would be resolved. It is not original - but effective.

3) add another strap to the goggle systems to make it more secure and let mayhem rule. Full-auto is good, bounce is good - what ever goes.

In my mind everything else is going to run afoul of bad enforcement or relies on yet more technology which opens the door for more cheats.

Honorable mention to the single trigger idea. But it, along with minimum trigger travel or weight requirements, don't address cheater boards or bounce.

-Calvin

[GT]

intresting post...

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=387401

We(industry) need to figure something out soon or posts like these will be the norm....

[Furby]

I'm a little reluctant to enter my opinion into this thread, but here I go anyways:

ROF caps and equipment limitations are crap, and always have been. At the IAO a couple of years ago I got into an extended debate with a head ref about RT. His contention was that RT was an unfair advantage because the gun was doing the work for the player, while I contended that properly using RT was a learned skill that had to be mastered before you could use it effectively in a game. Even in the era of electronic triggering, I feel that his holds true.

While Tom's idea of using a "Iron Byron" marker that's controlled by the refs and the sanctioning body so that players can lay a baseline ROF that they're capable of is attractive in theory, there are too many physiological and psychological factors that will come into play to make this effective in the real world. One of the best things about paintball as an equipment-based sport is that the players can tailor their setups to their personal preferences and requirements. Then you run into the additional obstacle of industry cooperation...as it's been said elsewhere in this thread, nobody really wants to limit ROF, especially the players. The game is growing, and at least in the tournement world, high-rof spraying and praying is how it's done today. The kids starting out in the tournement side of the sport today make a concentrated effort to acquire the best equipment for themselves, and practice the various techniques employed to achieve horrifically fast ROF.

Jim Drew's WAS boards are an added complexity to an already complex scene, but the reality is that the Equalizer won't make or break the sport any more than Constant Air, Semis, or compressed air did.

Just my .02...like it or don't. I fully expect to be flamed for my opinion, but that's okay...I can take the heat.

[fallout11]

So the answer is....

Okay, I've heard some good ideas that will probably never be implemented, and a lot of nay-saying.

For the nay-sayers: Just what do you suggest, then?
Just don't worry about it, and let it ride?
ROF's of 20+ are here to stay?

Alright, if so, consider this:
1) A human on foot is only so fast. Even olympic sprinters.
2) The distance between field bunkers is finite.
3) As "average" tourney ROF's increase to 20, 25, and who knows, 30 bps in the future, who will be able to run through a stream of paint?
4) If you can no longer safely "move" from one location to another on the field, who will?
5) Ahh, the game will increasingly become a completely static firefight. We see this somewhat now, with back players pitching a tent.
7) Paintball dies, since it's no longer any fun to hunker behind an inflatible bag, with no means to move without being shot 30 times.

[Mindflux]

Originally posted by magman007
tom, why not just include bluetooth technology into electros, and make it mandatory for electros to have a board with the technology incorporated, then have the blue tooth record max bps reached ingame, and sent to a central computer for evaluation in correlation with the chrono readings?

Someone would simply find a hack to 'transmit' a lower bps number.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Mindflux
Someone would simply find a hack to 'transmit' a lower bps number.

Too true. The [B]ONLY[\B] way to measure FPS/BPS reliably is to have a tournament supplied gizmo that did it.

I do have a great idea for a multipurpose device that would serve this and other purposes. I've sourced many of the components, but don't have any microcontroller experience.

I'd talk directly with TK or a developer if I can invest and get in on the action if the product was made.

[nerobro]

Well, controling a servo is easy. the big question is can it cycle 20x a seccond. Servos are also cheap. Programming amicrocontroler to control a servo is braindead easy....

well lets say it's what i'm working on ;-)