Thresholds of Human Action Potentals and Debouce Times

[AcemanPB]

Re: Thresholds of Human Action Potentals and Debouce Times

Originally posted by Butterfingers


Therefore if you shoot faster with a debounce of 1ms as compared to 7ms its not one shot per pull. The gun is doing the work for you. You are either picking up electrical noise or a "state of the art" program is adding shots here and there.

Food for thought!

Excelent post, I have always thought about this but could never have summed it up and explained like you did. This should be posted on more message boards. People need to read this.

What do you think is the best way to solve this problem? A BPS cap or maybe a debouce cap? Either way none of this will happen unless some of the industry heavy weights take some initiatve. This seems unlikely though, I mean look how many guns Bob Long sold, in a good part thanks to the WAS boards. I know all my friends bought timmies for the "speed." (we all know nearly all electro's can now cycle much faster than we could ever pull the trigger!!)

[BarryTolar]

[Butterfingers]

Adrenaline effects the body though diffrent mechanisms than refactory periods.

What im talking about is just about nerve impuses how fast it takes the actual signal to recover. 7ms this is 7/1000ths of a second.

I think the issue is that you see diffrences in the abilility of people to twitch this is valid. I never said all people are the same.

Im talking about the physycal limits of your nerves.

For example Say brian can twitch his finger voulentarily 50 times a second and Jason can twitch at 20 times a second. Brian is faster obviously... he can coordinate movements more efficently.

However if it were the case that both of them could increase thier rate of twitching through some SuperDrug the fastest thier bodies can physycally communicate these twitches is 143 twitches per second. Or 7ms between twitches.

Say you pull the trigger 15 times per second off the feild and 20 on the feild. 20bps is 50ms between twitches. This is nowhere NEAR the 7ms limit. People can be slower or faster but not faster than the limit.

Adrenaline and other neurological stimulants dialate blood vessels and allow you to coordiate movements at greater rates.

In conditons of "adreniline rush" Nerves are firing at faster rates but no faster than the refractory period limit. Under stimulants you are able to coordinate motions more effectively and fire impulses FASTER THAN NORMAL but not faster than the limit of the nerve 7ms. Thus you are faster but you are still nowhere near the limit of the nerve. Effectively more action potentials are being fired but these action potentials have a limit about 7ms.

So even if you body was 100 percent efficent and you had supermental capabilities... Im saying that your wiring can only handle 7ms impulses.

understand?

[rx2]

With other organisms that have been tested, there is a very small window within which a vast majority of samples tested would fall, in regards to muscle recovery times before summation and tetanization. As Butterfingers stated, it is a bell-shaped curve. Unfortunately, the best way to test is also not very feasible with humans. In lab animals, you pith the organism, and immediately harvest the muscle to be tested, as well as the primary nerve interfaced with that muscle (sciatic, radial, etc.). You then attach either end of a muscle to a device that records the movement. Whilst making sure to bathe the muscle an adequate amount of Ringer's solution, which keeps it nice and fresh, you apply electrical stimulus to the nerve, which then causes the muscle to contract. This device is computer controlled, and you can adjust all facets of the electrical stimulus, including duration, voltage, and cycle.

This, I think, would be very difficult with humans. This, however, does not mean that an average figure does not exits, nor does it mean that there does not exist a limit beyond which no human passes. It still comes down to basic biological processes, which are based upon chemical reactions, whose rates are definately finite.

Also, I don't remember specifically back to Endocrinology, but I don't think that Adrenaline has a direct effect on the ion gates, per se. What it does do is it acts as a vasoconstrictor, affects the sympathetic nervous system such that pulse and respiration increase, pulls blood to the muscles, and it facilitates ATP production. This is in part because of the increased blood flow, and thus oxygenation, and also because it initiates the adenylatcyclase cascade (or cAMP cascade). This activating cascade effects the mobilization of glycogene (liver) and triacylglycerines (fat tissue). The resulting rise in blood sugar better enables the fermentation of glucose in the muscles (anaerobic respiration).

In any case, there is a limit, but finding it is difficult, at best. And, yes, adrenaline will affect these figures.

[Miscue]

I understand how this is the case for one finger, but I still don't see how this applies to two fingers... timed very close together.

Also, move your arm to the left and then to the right. Keep track of when you wanted to go right. It is still going left at this point.

Now with a finger, you could time it such that... you tell your finger to start going the other direction before you've even hit the trigger. However, momentum still makes the finger hit the trigger and your finger releases... having sent the nerve pulse before hitting the trigger. Then this lag time doesn't appear. So, you do this w/o response lag... and then the second finger comes in for the second shot.

I'm not saying this is the case, I don't know. But something to consider.

[Butterfingers]

These are JUST nerve impuses...im not even considering the time it takes for the muscle to move.

Even if it is given that your finger can move at infinity meters per second. You can only fire impulses to tell your finger to change positions every 7 ms.

The response will not be faster just staggered.

[Miscue]

But do you see what I mean about the nerve has been signaled, and your muscles are moving away from the trigger... before hitting the trigger? Momentum carries it into the trigger, and release is very quick because the muscles were preemptively moving in that direction.

[Butterfingers]

I am having a difficult time understanding where you are going with this.

I need visual aids!

The image im getting is of a spring attatched to a recipricating piston.

At the end of its stroke the piston attached to the spring is going forward but the connecting rod is going backwards.

the spring snaps the piston back near the end of its stroke...

Now if the rate of reciprocation is once every 7ms the piston will also reciprocate every 7ms just off phase from the connecting rod.

[Ginjiroku]

a impulse(not the smart parts marker) travels at about 340 feet per second(it might be 320 I'm not sure but it is in that range).

[Butterfingers]

yep mylenated axons conduct signals at around 200 mph or around 300 ft/s

edit: ft/sec

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
I am having a difficult time understanding where you are going with this.

I need visual aids!

The image im getting is of a spring attatched to a recipricating piston.

At the end of its stroke the piston attached to the spring is going forward but the connecting rod is going backwards.

the spring snaps the piston back near the end of its stroke...

Now if the rate of reciprocation is once every 7ms the piston will also reciprocate every 7ms just off phase from the connecting rod.

Urm, think of how you smack someone with a towel... gym locker room style. You're pulling back before it hits... and that's how you get the smack.

[Butterfingers]

if you move your arm back and forth once every second how many smacks will you get per second...

1 or 1 second per smack.

Now if you are only physycally capable of moving your arm 143 times per second you will only get 143 smacks per second. or 7ms between smacks. Only your smacks will be off phase from your movement.

[Miscue]

But that is only if you have one arm... or one finger. You have the second finger to get in there right after the first. You cannot sustain this, of course. I'm talking a 2 round burst.

[Butterfingers]

wouldent the time required to coordinate the movement of your 2 fingers also require an action potiental?

[MrWallen]

Just some random thoughts on the last few posts:
It takes 7ms for the whole nerve sequence to happen. It takes longer to move your fingers. 7ms between shots would only be possible if it were ONLY your nerves controlling the shots.
However, if it's a two round burst ONLY, then you wouldn't have to worry about most of this (I think), your fingers would be set up to fire the shots, only requiring the pulling motion, and not repeated. I'm not sure how it all works, but it seems possible to fire two shots in a time span faster than the 7ms this way, but it doesn't really have to do with nerves (well it does, but not in the way I'm thinking, at least). Only if you were repeating the motion, over a set period of time, where the body must go through the nerve and muscle process after each shot again.

But I could be totally wrong, we never really got in depth in nerves in Biology (duh, that'd be Physiology anyway).