SPYDER = bad/poor design?

[~WarpedRT#2~]

OK, a Spyder and a Piranha are identical in design, but they are totally different feeling guns. You can tell instantly by looking at the Piranha that they have quality in mind. The feed neck isnt cluttered with messy solder marks, I've never heard of any of the screws stripping, and they are super easy to take apart. I will take a Piranha over a Spyder any day.

[evan123]

That is very true Jack. See one person on PBN actually took a spyder and was able to convert it into a timmy "true electro".

People tend to not believe spyders can be any good but the uncapped e-frame boards and a new microswitch makes it even faster then a timmy which may be hard for you people to swallow.

Spyders in all are great guns and when people tend to say its just an electro spyder, take it as a compliment that a spyder can shoot faster then a timmy.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

interesting

Interesting... a spyder could technically cycle faster than a viking-style marker, I figured the fact it uses a spring instead of highly pressurized air would limit it. Would it require a spring that is extremely heavy or one that is more along the lines of a cocker spring? And noids are that restricted? 25cps I figured it was in the 30's at least, but wouldn't that restrict you with an open bolt blowback as well? In electros, going with open bolt blowback, is there any other ways to fire it than the sear being activated by electric?

Does anyone have a site with diagrams of all the different ways a paintball gun can be activated? Like, comparing angels to timmys to trixes to mags to vikings, etc? I seem to remember an Angel is closer to a spyder than a viking. Not sure, might be talking out of my butt there, still learning alot about angels and spyders.

[evan123]

Spyders with high flowing and polished interenals can cycle at 45 bps and if they have an uncappped board they make them as fast as any gun out ther with the IS switch as well.

[RAM3139]

I believe those numbers are right, but I cant find where i got them from, so i'm going purely on memory. I think the solenoids in most markers are rated to ~25cps, and arent designed to go past that, although some can. But spyders are fast cycling. With stock hammer/spring, i believe a spyder, given a constant air source with no shootdown, can cycle 35-40 cps. But until i can find out the place where I read that, dont quote me on them. On the electronics side, a sear-drop system like in a spyder is definetly faster than a timmy/impulse/bushy etc.. as the solenoid pulse in a typical blowback is less than 10ms, most of the time around 7ms. But by the time electronics become the limiting factor, we'll have a lot bigger problems. Namely how to avoid 150+ balls per second.

Edit: Evan, out of curiosity, how did you arrive at that number?

[personman]

You guys ever taken a grip frame off a spyder, and then pulled the hammer back all the way and let it go? Its like a damn machine gun. I'd like to try it out with a Q-loader and see if it pwns as much as I think it would.. but then again its full auto.. it would be sweet to see it though

[tribalman]

i don't get this, i'm still using my mech spyder in tourneys, it rocks. the only problem i have with it is the huge drop i have on it. i even use this thing in tourneys sometimes. and yes i do own an electronic gun. i've owned an angel and i'm getting a timmy. to me the timmy has a different feel than the spyder. i haven't had any problems with shoot down/up, breaks, or any jams. i really think the spyder is superior, but that's me

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

machine

Can't say I have tried that, but now I want to :) Now doesn't the same thing happen if the sear doesn't catch the lug when air is low, going full auto? Can't you get booted from a tourney for that?

Now here's the next part: one common issue I've seen with open bolt blowbacks is if you're firing fast you could end up not getting enough air to reset the ram and end up with the bolt stuck forward. This is something that's pretty much eliminated by cockers as pulling the trigger again after unsuccessfully catching the sear will let it recock. Most other guns follow suit with this. Yes, I know you can just recock it but avoiding this from ever happening is important in tourneys. Would high quality production eliminate this or is it always a risk?

[RAM3139]

Are you talking with an electropneumatic ram, or the hammer not reseting on a blowback? If there isnt enough pressure to reset the hammer, then the gun sputters and kind of goes full auto, but they arent full cycles. The only way to avoid this is to just make sure the valve and reg are high flowing enough to not get shootdown.

[Jack & Coke]

Re: machine

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY


Now doesn't the same thing happen if the sear doesn't catch the lug when air is low, going full auto? Can't you get booted from a tourney for that?

Hi Q,

What you have described is the real meaning of...

RUN-AWAY

When the sear fails to catch the lug/hammer, the firing cycle is uncontrollable and the operator is unable to stop it.

If left alone, the gun will continue to firing on it's own until it is out of power (gas/ammo).

Just like this: http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...hlight=runaway

But I digress.. :) I have a new idea for a spyder hybrid... I'll PM in a little bit (dinner time!)

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

runaway

Yup, I assumed that's what it was, kinda funny, a whole thread on runaway markers. Blowbacks are definitely more susceptible because it's not like a mag where it's a sign of something busted, it's an unstoppable design flaw (current design that is). I am definitely thinking of an idea that could revolutionize the blowback design, both addressing this issue and another entirely different concept. We'll see what comes out of it. And it actually incorporates all the little ideas I've had this last couple of months, if theory and actuality stay close, it's going to be sick. But anyways....

Looking forward to the PM, if we have once again thought up the same great thing independently, we can definitely compare notes. I wish I had the tools to mill and build pball parts, I think my idea needs trial and error to really optimize it.

I like one outlying point to this thread: the real weakness in alot of products is the lack of attention or detail by those producing it, and sometimes performance takes a back seat to style.

[03vert]

my friend just bought a spyder clone and its not that bad. we had terrible paint to barrel match when we took it out for the first time so we were curving like crazy. i tried to get it up into the bps that would be respectable but my friend would freak out and would start crying about chopping with his reloader. anyways, it held up well, would be fairly accurate with PTBM, and didnt look bad at all. it was slow but all i need is accuracy and reliablity.
overall you get what you pay for with those types of markers. or you can drop 1k on a timmi that will prob crap out on you more but can crank out the bps like no other. personally i would rather pay for accuracy, effeniecy(sp), and reliablilty. and so i guess thats why we have AGD!

[OldSchoolVM68]

The older spyders are grate guns. The new ones are crap from what ive seen. Rember a VM68 was before the spyder, and it a much better built gun. After all the spyders ive worked on at the field it kinda does make them look bad (min of 1 a day). I see electro spyders go bad all the time. Where other guns in the same class (tippy's) it dosent happen.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by OldSchoolVM68
The older spyders are grate guns. The new ones are crap from what ive seen. Rember a VM68 was before the spyder, and it a much better built gun. After all the spyders ive worked on at the field it kinda does make them look bad (min of 1 a day). I see electro spyders go bad all the time. Where other guns in the same class (tippy's) it dosent happen.

Thanks for the insight... so which do you think is more reliable: Tippy or Spyder ?

Oh yeah...

Welcome to AO :)

[RingOfScale]

i do not believe spyders/piranhas/other random stuff to be bad guns. personally, the only thing i really dislike about my piranha is its horrible chrono numbers. it wasnt so bad originally, but now i get + - 20 FPS every shot. I think my reg is just ****ed uP <> but the gun cycles plenty fast, and has fairly nice efficiency ( better den a matrix !)

I think the only reason they were labled as bad guns is not because the design is bad, but because they were made to be cheap guns. rig up a spyder with a nice bolt/reg/eye, a shot counter ( the pure sign of uberness, it seems :) ) , throw in a barrel kit, fast hopper, an adapted WAS board of sorts, and i think they could rip with the best of em. while they might have a little more kick then a high end gun ( that just what i have heard ) that would probably be the only main dissadvantage... i dont know ... i just dont think they are as bad as everyone says, its just that no one makes the spyders with the high quality parts that are used in one of the top guns, so the spyders are naturally worse. make one with a uranium bolt that makes the pballs radioactive, thus melting the enemies guns, and i am sure people would buy em just as much as a timmy.

BTW pls dont flame meh, i know a radioactive paintball wouldnt melt an enemies gun *sigh* maybe it would mess up the electronics though...

-RingOfScale
captain of the soon to be formed team Phalanx