SPYDER = bad/poor design?

[RAM3139]

As a side note, last I heard, WAS is close to releasing a board for spyders, complete with ACE system.

[nerobro]

ACE, 4-99bps, adjustable debounce boards for the spyder have already been sold. The first 5 ship in a week. the two prototypes are already out there and in guns.

the next twenty are in another 3 weeks....

:-) Lets keep WAS out of it. IS is making boards. With eye support. (yes, my spyder has eyes)

If you want more information about this, goto the kingman forum on PBN, and then goto the Is products thread. :-) The board will support anything with a single solinoid.

[nerobro]

The Viking story.

I had a discussion with Aaron At aka during the tech confrence 2 years ago at the IAO.

the viking as it exists now. HAS NOTHING to do with a spyder.

The origianl viking was a spyder clone with a flat bottom, using a f4 hyperframe.

What AKA discovered is that when you build a spyder to tight tolerances, THEY STOP WORKING. They got terriabl velocity consistancy with the high precicsion blowback. They couldn't solve the problems, so they gave up and made it ram driven, using the excal body layout.

Everyone complains about lack of quality, but there's places where loose tolerances are a GOOD THING.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

velocity

Hmmm, I guess I can see the velocity issue. That kind of stinks, but I guess the hammer doesn't have to be that tight of a fit, and the bolt should move pretty freely. It is interesting AKA then chose to not even go with them anymore, I guess this relates to the known velocity variations an open bolt blowback can have. I am very interested to know the variability powering a hammer by a spring experiences over a hammer being powered by a ram like a Viking.

[nerobro]

Re: interesting

Well I suppose it's time to do a real post here.

Quincy: A fatty striker spyder will cycle in about 20ms. If you do the math, that works out to 50cps. With lighter bolts, lighter hammers (think slim striker, and a derlin bolt) it's even faster. Harder hammer springs bring up the cycle rate as well.

Someone noted that if you fire a spyder fast it needs to be recocked. That is USUALLY the gun STOPPING on a ball. not chopping it. And if it beats down, that's usually the inline regs fualt.

Evan: the number I mentioned, 50cps. is COMPLETELY stock. Not modified in any way. MOST spyder modifications slow the gun down if anything.

Ram: the sear dwell on a spyder is something in the range of 6ms. Pi is doubble checking kingmans number this week. M3 uses 6ms to trip their sears. We used 6ms to trip the sear on the demonstration gun, and on my gun.

People complain about kick. People complain a spyder isn't reliable. Blowbacks are made more reliable by adding mass to the recriprocating compoenents. That's why tippmans and vm's are so reliable. And why spyders are more efficant. As you add mass to the hammer and bolt, it takes more energy to make them change direction. This uses air. This also makes the gun kick more. Again, there are aftermarket hammers that address this. Using a prototype hammer in an agressor we were able to reduce kick to a level that made it feel like dry fireing a mag. It was sick :-)

jack and coke: there's already been a blowback that will automatically recock itself if the gun beats down, or is uncocked. It was called the pheonix. It didnt' even have a hammer spring, it used a ram instead. (but no 3 way, and it still used a recock jet)

And yes, after all my ranting. I own mags. I own cockers. I tech every other kind of gun on the market.

[Meph]

Is a Spyder a poor design? Obviously not. Since the Angel, Bushmaster, Impulse, Timmy, Viking, Diadem, Cyborg, et cetera.... these all follow the SAME airflow and design theory. There's going to be differences obviously, but nothing major that completely makes them radically different. Wow, Angel's got 3 tubes. Impulse is taller. Timmy is longer. Any of that really doesn't matter to me, I don't think that small. I think the theory behind the design, and the airflow behind it.

The people that go "it's just a fancy spyder" are 2 things usually. 1) Ignorant. 2) Biased. It doesn't matter what it is, they are making that comment soley to put down the other person's equipment to make thiers sound superior. Not because it is, but because since they own it (or want to) it must be better. So they must knock THEIR purchase down to make themselves feel better about buying the Bushmaster instead of the Impulse! Or Speed instead of Timmy. Or what have you.

So I wouldn't worry about it at all. Most of us who know better do so because we don't think so closed or immaturely. And despite proving them wrong they're going to continue to say "Timmy is just a Spyder" the next time they get the chance.


The Spyder design itself is not poor or bad, no. But the Spyder itself is just poor. Cheeply and quickly stamped and rush-made parts for quantity, not quality.

[OldSchoolVM68]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke


Thanks for the insight... so which do you think is more reliable: Tippy or Spyder ?

Oh yeah...

Welcome to AO :)

Well thanks for lettin me know i'm welcmoe. I hope to bring some knoledge here, but yall seem to be perty smart. My personal oppinion is that a Tippmann is much more reliable. I do own both, a old Spyder elite and a Model 89. Heres a pic of the 98. Its chromed and anniodized (SP?)

edited: cant post pic here and dont know why

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

tippy/spyder

I think tippy's are in the same general class as spyders, less precision entry level, but tippman sacrifices some looks to put it into quality. I'd be happier on the field with a tippy than a spyder. I just wish tippys would switch to standard centerfeed low-rises.

[breg]

I own a Spyder TL Plus, and that has to be the most temermental marker, but I love it. I think it's the whole thing about it being your first gun yadda yadda yadda.
personally, I like some of those spyders, in fact, quite a few people I know own Spyders as first markers. Yes, thewre are thing that they could do to make the markers better: manufacturing, materials, etc.